David Fano: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. Thanks for joining this episode today. We're with Rachel Gogel. I'm excited to talk about her career, but rather than me trying to paraphrase, I always like to hear it directly from our guests. So Rachel, could you tell us a little bit about

Rachel Gogel: yourself? Thanks Dave, for having me. So I currently use the title of independent chief creative and culture officer.

I'm originally from Paris, France, but based in San Francisco, I live here with my wife and cat. I've worked at the intersection of strategy, product advertising and editorial for about 15 years from launching story-driven experiences, a small design studio called Godfrey data to partners all the way to building multidisciplinary teams at the New York times.

Award-winning T brand studio, GQ magazine and Facebook. My formal training is in graphic design, but I do find myself. Committed to helping brands retain their integrity in a [00:01:00] world, demanding disruption. What I mean by that is I shaped teams. I champion organizational culture and as a people manager often dedicate my time to fostering spaces that unlock human potential.

Um, and I've also come to care deeply about using my voice and privilege to help create inclusive and connected communities, especially for women and the queer community. I'm the recently appointed, uh, chair for this program called women in leadership and design. The acronym is wild, which obviously I love on the, uh, American Institute of graphic arts board, AI GA here in San Francisco.

And I'm either one. The mission for wild is to address the gender. Disparity in the design industry, which just aligns a lot with my values and kind of how I, how I approach my work. So while I've had a few experiences, mostly in big companies, and then most recently at a small design [00:02:00] studio, I actually launched my own consultancy at the end of 2020.

Uh, yes, during a pandemic I've led projects ranging from developing global brand systems to scaling creative operations last year. Most notably I helped relaunch American express lifestyle brand departures as their executive creative director, but I was a contractor and I've been advising Airbnb on how to restructure their internal brand team.

So just really excited to be here and to talk about maybe some career highlights, but yeah, Dave, thanks for having me.

David Fano: Oh, wow. I'm like, so regretting, we only have like 40 minutes to have this conversation. That's amazing. All right. Cool. Well, I would like to kick off the podcast with the same question, which.

You know, when in your life did you start to think more intentionally about kind of like what I want to do when I grow up. Right. And you obviously, like I've got young kids, they say, you know, crazy things, but like this one is like, no, this one, actually I could really see myself doing it. Like I may go to [00:03:00] school for this or talk us through that initial.

Yeah. I think this is what I want to do.

Rachel Gogel: I love this question. Um, so I would say I grew up in Paris, France. I'll never take that for granted. My parents are originally from the U S but I was surrounded by design and type and obviously good food, but mostly kind of just intrigued by art history and mixed media and collage.

And my first experience within the world of design, to be honest, was just participating in yearbook in high school. And that was like old schooled Photoshop, like with the little feather icon, you know, we have. Like one computer in the house and we would, you know, have access to computers in school. It's not like I'm not old, but like knowing how quickly technology has advanced in the last 15 years, it's just wild to think that that was really my exposure to design was cutting.

People's like faces [00:04:00] out of photos just to have very clean backgrounds for the yearbook. And I started just being intrigued by the power of design and art. And I did a lot of mixed media in college. I mean, sorry, in high school. And that's what intrigued me to apply to schools that offered design programs.

But I shied away from applying to art school only. I think I wanted an experience that was a little bit more all encompassing in case I changed my mind, but I definitely was intrigued by. Design and art and, you know, I would say, yeah, the yearbook from high school was probably what peaked my curiosity.

And I ended up going to Penn and Philadelphia, and you're not really required to declare your major until a little bit into college, but I ended up declaring my major early after maybe my first graphic [00:05:00] design class. And I, I knew that that was what I wanted to study. And I feel really privileged that I've been able to make a career out of those choices.

It's not just like a passion on the side. It's I can like live my passion in my day job. And I know that that's a rare thing. Well,

David Fano: hopefully together we can make it less rare. Cause yeah. Right. When you can find that work, that charges you up the way I talk about it, it's like an endless supply of energy.

It's just like the work you do charges you up. That's the best. Okay. So. Um, like we have, I studied architecture at a very similar experience. Like I was the kid that did the cover of the yearbook in high school. I wanted to be a comic book artist. My dad's like, that's not a real job. So the thing, you know, what would you, you brought up and I'd never had terms for, but it's almost like this like career hedging we do for school.

Like I want to do graphic design, but I'm gonna go to a school that has other stuff just in case, you know, so, okay. So you go to Penn and you get the degree then, you know, I guess you got to start [00:06:00] working, right? That's what life tells us. We got to get food on the table,

Rachel Gogel: but it was a recession. It was hard to get a job, but it was, um, you know, you go to a certain type of school.

You assume that you're going to graduate with a job. And I didn't, and we were only two designers my year. Now the program has definitely evolved. I heard recently from the undergraduate chair of fine arts at Penn, that they finally created a design major, which at the time, uh, my major was within the.

Space. So it was like a concentration in communication design, but under the fine arts umbrella. Whereas now they actually have a design major. I'm really happy to hear that. But yeah, it was, it was a recession. And I remember being hard on myself, kind of watching all of my friends at Wharton, get jobs in consulting and finance.

And then I was this, the creative one who like hadn't landed a job and ended up moving to New York without a job. And, you know, [00:07:00] I had done some internships in college and started reaching out to people. I was lucky enough to also get into a small kind of master's workshops, who the school of visual arts SVA.

Which brought me to Italy right after graduation, which was amazing. But I, you know, was part of this program being immersed within a more of an art school environment. And really that, I think that just opened my eyes to other opportunities. And also obviously met some really interesting people, but ended up in New York, crashing with my sister, like not really knowing what was next.

And I ended up applying to internships because I had a hard time getting a full-time job. Um, but I'm really glad that I was kind of faced with these challenges. I think it pushed me into spaces that I wouldn't have been exposed to had that not happened. And I ended up in [00:08:00] fashion for a few months. I worked for a Diane Von Furstenberg studio as a design intern in her kind of marketing art director.

I liked it so much that I asked to kind of extend my internship by about four months. So I was there for eight months and they were great. And I, I think that's really when it clicked to me that every industry needs design it, wasn't just, you know, I had my eye on publishing for a while and working in magazines.

That was definitely one of my dreams. But when I started working in fashion, I think it just made me realize, oh, you know, all kinds of industries and spaces need people with my skill sets. What does that mean for me? It just, it kind of unlocked something for me.

David Fano: That's something I think a lot about. Cause I think people conflate craft and context and you know, design is a great example, but the same applies for lawyers financing.

Craft [00:09:00] vocation occupation and then context in which I do it. And you've used switched a few contexts, you know, get fashion startups, tech publishing. How do you think about that now? You know, given the experiences you've had and sort of that being fashion, even though that's not where you thought, you know, this idea that you thought you were going to go to a context and, you know, just cause I think a lot of people get very like boxed into a context, but you were able to get out of it and it opened up new opportunities to like, how do you think

Rachel Gogel: about that?

I guess I realized that, especially because I was just starting out in my career, but even now, if you almost remove the name of the organization or the brand and you think of it as a, okay, what size is my team? How do they work? How do they interact with whoever makes the key decisions? You know, what kind of deliverables do they create?

What's the culture. Um, that was what was interesting to me because. I wanted to try [00:10:00] different things. I mean, that's the exciting part about starting out is, and again, like if you have the privilege to kind of hop around and try a few different things, it's kind of just staying open-minded that you can learn a lot by being placed in different contexts.

And that it's not just about the brand name or the organization or the cloud or the salary. Um, it's actually about the people and the team structure and how they work. And so that actually I grew a lot on a personal level, as I said, I grew up in Paris in like the FA one of the fashion capitals of the world, and never really saw myself as a certain type of woman who like cared about certain things.

And I feel like working in fashion. Even for one minute, just made me appreciate certain things differently. Or, you know, it also made me interact with people that maybe naturally, like, I wouldn't have been in those same spaces. I want to, some fashion [00:11:00] shows I maybe started dressing a certain way. I mean, not just, it was just a great part of my personal and professional development and that's kind of how I've seen every career milestone it's being kind of faced with new spaces and kind of trying to unlock and learn from those spaces and interesting ways.

And so that's really what I think I learned early on. And wasn't too precious about it. Just kind of excited about being immersed in a new space because I could learn and ask questions and grow. And every place has kind of added certain things to my wheelhouse so that I can take it to the next.

David Fano: So with that, what was that next moment you did the internship for eight months learned about a new industry.

What sort of prompted the change? Obviously an internship expired, I guess, or ended, but like what what'd you do [00:12:00] what'd you do

Rachel Gogel: next? Well, they were actually very, there was no kind of open role for full-time. So they were very supportive about me looking for full-time, you know, as I was working there. And as I said before, I had always been intrigued by publishing.

I was, when I was in college, I interned for Conde Nast and met some really interesting people while I was there. I also, there was one stint where I went home to Paris and worked for a French magazine called mixed. And so generally I was, I was fascinated by the world of editorial and layout and magazines.

And, you know, you watch movies and maybe you fantasize about that, or there's like a kind of a. Is there an image you have, obviously it's not just that, but there were also a lot of design icons or people that I looked at for reference says that I, that I, that worked in publishing that I was intrigued by.

So I had my eye on GQ magazine. I did end up [00:13:00] working there, not too long afterwards, but GQ didn't have any positions at the time, but it was really great when I did reach out to someone at GQ, they said, look, I don't have any head count right now, but my friend at travel and leisure needs a junior designer.

I'll put you in touch. And I didn't know this woman, but she technically shaped my, like, she enabled me to have my first job. So I ended up at, at a travel and leisure for a little bit working in their marketing art director. Um, that was technically like my first job.

David Fano: That's awesome. And, okay, so then you land there, new contact.

Now you're in publishing learning about travel. What was like, like that next kind of like moment you needed to make a significant career decision.

Rachel Gogel: So, you know, I would say travel and leisure was my it's. It's both my first job. And also my last job in terms of how maybe your [00:14:00] conventional track as a designer would go.

So like, I was moving at a pace that you would deem normal. I was a junior designer. I was just starting out. I did all the things, you know, from layout to maybe getting coffee for whoever and was very appreciative about all of the experiences. I started doing some freelance on the side, though. As I said, I, I did some internships.

And, uh, when I was in college for, for cutting ass and started meeting some people there, one of my freelance gigs ended up being, doing some freelance for GQ, which I said, like was something that I maybe wanted to do eventually. And I was trying to figure out how to work there. Maybe permanently, they asked me to build a site on WordPress, which honestly at the time was kind of this new CMS had to kind of learn how to use it.

And I built the site for their internal design studio, essentially. It would, it was used as a tool [00:15:00] for salespeople to pitch their internal team to potential advertisers. And I was doing freelance for Sundance. I started, it was just like really fun to start feeling I'm saying for others. And I did end up leaving, travel and leisure.

Actually, I mean, there's the short version and the long version, but the, I liked the work. I feel like there were certain things in the workplace that didn't align with kind of some of the things that I, I wanted. There was a little bit of like toxic culture, like things that I wasn't sure I was young and I, you know, easily kind of, I could be influenced easily.

And just didn't think that, that w I had to put up with certain things that were I was being faced with. So I left and I took a short contract gig at NBC universal at USA. It was a three month contract creating kind of key R and posters and collateral for some shows on USA. I loved it. I like loved the [00:16:00] world of entertainment.

I mean, again, this is where yes, I had my iron publishing, but to be honest, if there's a job soon, that kind of immerses me more in the world of entertainment, I would also be intrigued and that's definitely become more of a passion of mine over the. And as that contract was approaching its ending, they actually started talking to me about a full-time job.

Now my life probably would look really different had I stayed at USA. Um, but at GQ, you know, they were one of my clients and this is really what, fast-tracked my career, the woman who was my boss at Conde Nast over the college years, ended up leaving her job. And there was a job opening. And the woman that I was working with up for this WordPress website asked me if I wanted to be considered for the job.

And I thought I was a little bit out of my realm. I was a junior designer. The job was, you know, technically the title of this woman [00:17:00] had been art director. She, the hiring manager was like, you may be not experienced enough to be considered for our director, but what about associate art director? Which I still thought know.

They're going to catch on, like, this is not some, I don't know if I can do this, but okay. Let's see what happens. Um, I apply, I get the job and suddenly I'm placed in this position where I'm, uh, I'm a manager. I was managing this, the marketing art department of GQ. And I was like 22 or something. Everyone on the team was older than me.

And I that's really what, like, when I think about my career trajectory, that's what like put me on a path where it like it fast, forwarded several years just by being pushed into this position of leadership. And I never looked back. I love people management. I totally learned on the job. Um, if anything, I was thinking about the people who had managed me and some of the experiences that I [00:18:00] had prior and tried to think of.

You know, a management style that I would like, you know, how, how would I like to be treated? Oh, I'll treat those people similarly and started building certain management philosophies from there. I was a GQ for a few years. I got promoted three times at two different publishers. And here I was, you know, 22, 23, and I had already landed my, my dream job.

So, you know, as you can imagine, I then had to think about, well, what's my next dream. And that's, I think also a good lesson is not, you know, kind of, I just, I didn't get stuck, you know, too quickly. I, I kept wanting to kind of think about what was next, obviously within reason, but that's ended up, you know, that's what led me to the New York times, but yeah, DQ was big.

David Fano: Can you talk us through that a little bit? Because I think that that's like a non-obvious situation for people, right? It's like, I've got a great job. Everything's great. But you know, there's something internally. [00:19:00] Th, you know, once the S seeking more, but it's also like a weird conversation to get to have.

Right. It's like you talk to a friend or a parent as like, you know, I just, I want to do something different, better, more like I'm just, and the response is like, but you have a great job. Like, everything's great. Why, why, why, why would you do that? They do experience a little

Rachel Gogel: bit of that there. Yeah. I mean, I'll never forget this, Dave, like, I, I had dinner with two friends and I'll never forget this because I was telling them that I was thinking about maybe leaving GQ and.

Like shocked. Why would you wrap the boat? You know, you just got promoted. This was your dream. Like you get to go to these cool parties. You're surrounded by celebrities. You're doing all these interests. You know, I didn't take that for granted to be fair. Like I, I did love my job. I really proud of what I did there.

I, um, you know, while I ha I was young and [00:20:00] that was my first kind of management role, I learned so much within that context. And that definitely shaped, you know, various career moments, like even after that. But the conversation that led me to want to leave was I had led to, uh, two big initiatives for GQ, really proud of them, both of them related to the kind of intersection of technology and publishing.

So I, in 2012 to help launch. Print and mobile augmented reality app called GQ live. And essentially it was a white label app. And you would basically scan a page as a magazine and you'd get exclusive content on your phone. And that was a way for us to get people back to the newsstand buying the printed issue.

Cause you obviously needed that to get this additional content. And it wasn't, you know, meant to be gimmicky or this like one-off thing. We were like investing in the technology. We really believed in it. [00:21:00] And that there was this like moment in time, I think between 2012 and 2014, where all of these magazines started having their own apps and we were the first to do it.

And I was really proud of that experience. And it was like this big deal for awhile. We wouldn't really charge our advertisers for it, but it became. Part of what we would sell and they would get the segmented content and reach users a certain way. And then shortly after that, the iPad was also kind of coming on the scene and increasingly publishing houses were resourcing tablet differently than, you know, before they were basically building teams devoted to digital additions.

Again, I'm talking as if I'm like, this is, what's like a hundred years ago. It really wasn't that long ago. And who talks about the iPad anymore? No one, but at the time, you know, everyone wanted to figure out the iPad, they would build [00:22:00] these digital additions. It wasn't just a PDF. Um, and then, so we, I built something called my GQ, which was essentially like a enhanced tablet experience where you could shop the tablet edition and like.

Save things. I'll a Pinterest board and like kind of interact with the GQ edition on that, on the iPad in any way. Anyway, all this to say, I was really intrigued by these spaces and I wanted to do more of it. So I went to my publisher and I was trying to convince them that this was the future. Like we need to invest more in these types of technologies and innovation.

And I wanted to keep doing that. And you know, I'll never forget this and I have respect my publisher and I, you know, but we had this like real conversation where you said, I think Rachel, what you're looking for is not, is not something that is possible. Like these were, you know, good experiences. They [00:23:00] were good investments, but let's get back to doing what we do best and let's take a, a break and like, not, you know, we don't have to like keep doing these, you know, a certain, a certain cadence.

And I remember thinking, well, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if I was just like, bored with that idea or that I wanted more or that I thought it was possible, but maybe just not with this magazine, maybe it's somewhere else. And so that's really what led me to leave. I was intrigued by it. And so, I don't know, I don't know if it was, you know, Conde Nast or just the spaces and that I had to, I mean, at times this was where I could then invest in more cross-platform, you know, digital, interactive experiences.

And so that like enabled me to do more of that on an ongoing basis. But anyway, cut to maybe a year and a half later, I ran into my publisher at a party and he said, you know, Rachel, I've been watching you since then. And I just [00:24:00] wanted to admit that. You know, I was wrong and you know, maybe you just wasn't the right time or the right fit, you know, within the GQ context.

But that, like, I kind of like prove to him that, you know, what I, what I wanted existed, maybe just wasn't wasn't that GQ anymore. And so that was kind of like a validating moment. Obviously. I

David Fano: love that story so much because I feel that this is really one of the things we try to highlight until more broadly and kind of one of my missions for starting the company is that a lot of people would have tried to start a company there and instead, and not there's anything wrong with starting companies, but it is possible to find a place that doesn't sort of have some of the other headaches that come with doing a company where you can still focus on your craft and see through an idea and you can be fulfilled and you can grow.

And it very much feels like you were able to do that.

Rachel Gogel: Yeah. I've I mean, I feel very lucky. I had a great relationship with the executive team. They did promote me. A [00:25:00] few times. I felt, you know, I loved that. I could show women that you can have, you know, leadership positions, even at my age and thrive. And I had a lot of influence and I had, you know, it was a very amicable exit and I'm still in touch with a lot of those people.

But I mean, I can, I can say this now. Technically the reason why I was put on the times as radar was because a former colleague at GQ who ended up leaving to go to the times, referred me at the times, and then, you know, that's how I, I ended up getting that job. So, you know, it, I mean, are all of our respective industries, I'm sure incestuous in their own way, but there's something to be said about just, yeah.

Trying to foster relationship, like genuine relationships and really kind of believing in, you know, someone's potential. And when, the times where. This was [00:26:00] like a very critical moment for the times before digital subscriptions were even kind of a big part of their revenue. And, you know, also them trying to figure out new revenue models, like building an in-house content studio.

And so I felt if I look back to my career, I tend to join spaces that are either at this like, like brands who are trying to navigate like a big seismic change. Whether that's like a new technology just came out or a new device came out and they don't know how to navigate it, or kind of make it part of like who they are and their like genuine more long lasting way, or they're kind of intrigued by something happening in the market.

And they don't know how to do it. And I like building things. I like building teams. I like being part of these big changes and helping brands kind of find themselves amongst like these like [00:27:00] disruptive times. And then I tend to kind of hand it off once it's somewhat built or there's a foundation and then I help operationalize it.

And then I like move on to the next thing. Yeah. I thrive off the like raw building stage. I get a little bit, I don't know. I don't know if it's bored or just like, I feel like I don't feel like my strengths come through as much once the team is like, it's like a little bit more on autopilot or like they enter like a new stage.

So that's really what brought me to the times. This was like right before T brand studio was created. And I think I was the first creative director hired on the sales side of the times. Yeah. I

David Fano: think a, a core component to career fulfillment is self-awareness. And I think a lot of people really struggle with defining themselves.

Right. Because they want to keep it open and saying, look, I'm more of a zero to one person, not a one to 10 person [00:28:00] just feels like, no, but I can, you know, this kind of like idea that I can be anything it's like, sure I can, but it's not about what I can do. Where I feel like I'm at my best, where I feel like my interest and passion align and actually having confidence, you know, it's like any product that you market, right?

Like the better you can like connect the product to the market the better. So the more you can connect, like your interest in time and your value, like I've just feel like everything starts to compound. And when I see people struggle, is there like lack of willingness, frankly, to engage with that conversation on themselves of like, what, where am I

Rachel Gogel: at my best?

Yeah. I agree. I think once it clicked for me that I was like wired a certain way and not like ashamed of it or feeling kind of weird about it, or I wasn't like criticizing that way of being, or asking myself to stretch into spaces that didn't give me joy. I'm not saying I can't do those [00:29:00] things. It's just, I find myself really drawn to a certain type of phase.

And what if I could. Just the part of these phases. And actually, I mean, now running my own practice, I'm like essentially pitching myself to clients of like, that's my specialty. And I will help you get to a place where you can get to the next phase and do all the things to like set you up for that. But then I'm going to back out and it feels very, I don't know what the word is, but like, it's, it's just nice to like, have that be formalized more and that I can, I'm like proud of that and I'm not, you know, and brands need it.

And I think, but there's like a mutual understanding that that's like my purpose. And that was like a key unlock for me.

David Fano: Yeah. It's an interesting thing. Cause I feel like we all seek to be valued, but it's hard to be valued without having clarity on what your

Rachel Gogel: value is. You know, [00:30:00] whether it's IDEO or S Y partners or these, um, organizations that kind of an unpack, you know, your superpowers, um, you know, I've done some of these exercises in the last four or five years or so.

And that also helped kind of clarify, like when you can name something like a strength or a superpower, and then be able to talk about it with your colleagues or clients, or, you know, it makes something that sounds very abstract and it turns it into something concrete and you kind of like reclaim it, like, you know, and for a little while it almost felt like something that I had to almost, I would, I would acknowledge it if I'm in the moment, if I'm like moving really quickly and other people I feel like are behind or I'm overwhelming them or something.

And I was always conscious of that, but yeah, I think it made me realize know. Okay, this is who I am. This is how I'm wired. How do I put myself in spaces where this is celebrated or [00:31:00] needed and not where I feel like I'm, you know, I don't know where it's, it's not a kind of a required strength or something like that.

And so that's, yeah, that's really, what's led me to these various experiences and spaces and I'm, I'm really grateful that there's, yeah, there's a need for that. And I, um, I'm like proud of those, those moments. That's

David Fano: awesome. Okay. So New York times, we have so much more awesome career NIS for you. Um, and I remember I want to, um, I, yeah, I love it.

This is, this is so awesome. Okay. So New York times, incredible brand, incredible company, pivotal moment in their history. Walk us through that and kind of like what what's, what did that lead you to, you know, like now the world's changing, obviously like these two things that you're super at the intersection.

What did that lead to next?

Rachel Gogel: So obviously, you know, the times from a mission perspective, I like love the idea that I could be on the business side of the [00:32:00] company and essentially help kind of ad revenue and help support the like journalistic endeavors of the company. Like it felt, you know, some people work in advertising and marketing and you kind of don't really know where that money goes, or you're not really sure, kind of what happens to your, you know, based on your actions.

But in this case, it felt like everything I did had a real purpose because it would then bring the kind of great journalism to the world. Um, I think I was the first creative director. I was trying to think about that this morning, obviously after that more creative directors starting being hired and we're trying to kind of build and scale and push on the craft and the storytelling and the creative practice, almost taking.

A lot of learnings from the newsroom into the sales and marketing and advertising space, maybe one or two other publishers had just started building [00:33:00] in-house agencies, but it was very new. And even the term native advertising or branded content was, I mean, now it's like, you know, everyone kind of talks about it.

Um, but at the time it was, it was a new term. And the now CEO of the New York times, Meredith COBIT Levine. And then I think the SVP of advertising, I don't know what his exact title is now, but, um, Sebastian Thomas, so Sebastian and Meredith came from Forbes where they had just pushed on some kind of branded studio initiatives.

And then tried to kind of think about how to build that within the New York times. And I like loved being part of that original crew. It was very small. You know, there was a editorial lead, there was a production lead, there was a video lead. And then I led creative and like, wow. I mean, that was one of the most challenging parts of my [00:34:00] career probably then also the most rewarding, I think very quickly.

It just grew, we started building, you know, pieces that if you look back, I mean, it's not, this was 2014. Some of those pieces that are still online, kind of look old school, like it's just crazy how, like the web obviously has developed so quickly. Um, but at the time they were these like novel pieces, not just for the writing and the storytelling, but that the ways that we could kind of tell stories and, and then build them cross platforms.

So I loved that. We were obviously creating something that would live not only on the web, but on your phone. And then sometimes in print. So you'd print things maybe in the paper or in the magazine. And there were these like really strong stories where we try to like Uplevel advertising. And I was already trying to do that when I was at GQ was like really pushing the notion of what is deemed, you know, an advertorial or a piece of branded content and make it almost [00:35:00] feel very editorial.

Like not to confuse readers. That's not the intent. It was actually just to deliver just quality. Advertising to readers and, oh, I loved the experience. I mean, we, the, the thing that really put us on the map was a piece we did with Netflix and helping promote the orange is the new black series. And, you know, the fact that we could interview the author who wrote the book that the show is based on Piper.

And we could actually, we interviewed like actual inmates, like what men, women inmates, and how prison effected their lives and their family is there was a short documentary. I hired, uh, an illustrator to do like the header graphic. Um, it had motion in, it had audio had infographics. I mean, all the works and the, there was a tweet by David Carr, the late David Carr.

Who's no longer with us, but kind of [00:36:00] praising our peace. I'll never forget that because essentially as soon as he. You know, said something positive about the world of branded content, suddenly people were noticing and that it really took off from there. I think, I mean, that was, I ended up building a team of, I think it went from like one to 12.

It was a mix of designers and motion designers and photographers and UX designers. And obviously it's grown since, but the whole T brand team ended up being close to maybe a hundred people. When I was there, we ended up acquiring certain companies and studios. There was a lot more investment in augmented reality and VR.

I, yeah, I, I, I did love that experience. I mean, that, that rounded out my career in publishing and I'm like really proud of all of those experiences ended up helping me, you know, bring me to my next thing, which was I left publishing and went into tech, [00:37:00] but all of the. All of those skills were transferable and applied to my next career

David Fano: moment.

Again, you're in a situation where you're like, sort of top of the world, right? You're like at the pinnacle of this occupation, you created in a way, and you decide to do a new thing. Right. And I'm sure again, you had conversations, like, why would you leave? Why would you go somewhere else? So what, what, you know, what

Rachel Gogel: happened?

Yeah. I, I was trying to get promoted and it was hard. I, you know, the, I felt like I had really pushed and helped them so much kind of build this thing. I was creative director and I'm proud of that. I was trying to become ECD and it was, you know, a title change and maybe obviously like a raise or something, but some kind of recognition for.

My efforts. And this was one of those moments where I was, I think I was reminded that I was a certain [00:38:00] age and that I maybe also was female and that I was good where I was. And that was a moment where I did not, I obviously didn't appreciate certain comments that were made while they may have not been, you know, I respected the people I worked for, and I don't think there was any ill intent, but you know, when you're working hard, no matter your age or sex or identity or whatever, and you're kind of hoping to move forward in your career, you know, being kind of reminded that like, shouldn't you appreciate like what you have and what you've built and kind of aren't you good where you are?

I think that was one of those moments where I was like, all right, challenge accepted. Like, I'm really proud of what I've done here, but, um, I'm not going to kind of take the. Let me explore if there's kind of other things that I could be doing. And honestly, there was a moment where I was going to pack up my step that I [00:39:00] was also, I love New York.

I think there was this moment of maybe I need a break. Maybe I could just go traveling for a year, take, take a minute. Maybe I should launch my own studio. And then I also thought about that path. And, but then I thought, well, maybe I'll just be known for publishing and I'll be the branded content girl. I don't know if I want to be known for that.

Or at least it would like put me in a very specific box. And that's actually, when Facebook reached out, it was kind of a serendipitous thing that happened. That's really what moved me to California. Um, so I didn't apply to Facebook. They reached out to me and that was all I thought, you'd appreciate this story, but I used to run a, like a job newsletter.

It was. DIY I used MailChimp. Um, I, I started it when I, when I ended up at GQ. So for, from like 2011 to 2016, I had this newsletter and it was [00:40:00] all word of mouth and referral. And the idea was that I would just, I would cut out the middle person. It was like, I would send a newsletter that just had people's listings.

And it was like the title, the description, and the person's email directly that you could just reach out to. And because it was just like my direct network or close network, there was kind of a trust. And through that experience, I met some guy for coffee and we met, you know, various, this was like years before I started at Facebook, but when we had a really great chat and then he was looking for advice for his career and then cut two years later, he's an employee at Facebook.

I mean, he's actually the one who referred me internally. So karma, I guess, but, uh, yeah, that's what really led me to, to really switch up my life and move to California and change it

David Fano: up. That's awesome. What I want to talk about for a second, we're kind of toying with the idea of calling it, like ambition, [00:41:00] shaming, this idea of dislike being shamed for your ambition, which I think is we're living in a funny time of like anti hustle culture and things like that, which I think makes sense.

And really what people want is control. They don't want to feel forced into hustling. They want to kind of own it, but there's also this, yeah. What I'd call like ambition, shaming. It's like being made to feel bad for wanting to do more. And it feels like you experienced that. You know, it's like not just, you know, be happy with what you've got.

Just appreciate it. It's like, we're almost not allowed to want more because there's a lot of people that are clearly struggling in the world and haven't had the position we have, but then it's like, it's very complicated and then even more complicated to be like opening up.

Rachel Gogel: For sure. Especially, I will say, as a woman, sometimes that gets conflated with, you know, I dunno being aggressive or being too demanding or, you know, because unfortunately a lot of women don't tend to ask for what they want or what [00:42:00] they deserve and, you know, the design industry or the creative didn't exchange in general is still somewhat skewing to be more male dominated.

Even though there are a lot of designers graduating from design programs, they're not making their way up to leadership positions. And that's something that I'm really passionate about kind of just changing that narrative and hopefully closing the gender gap or getting it closer. So, yeah, it's true to my heart what you're saying.

And I think that's why instead of settling or putting my ambition aside to just try and appreciate what I have, I always hoped that there would maybe be something else that could. Fulfill that desire to kind of move into new spaces. And I feel very fortunate that, that I haven't really, you know, hit a wall.

It's like the Facebook thing came out of nowhere, never thought I would move to California. Um, and then suddenly I'm [00:43:00] being challenged in new ways in these new spaces, those skills transferred over easily. And one of the biggest learning curves of working in tech was actually more of the language.

There's like communication style between engineers and creatives and like learning how to pitch your ideas and concepts. That was like the biggest learning curve for me. It wasn't building a team for the Facebook app. It was like knowing not to bring mood boards into a meeting because that was too abstract for engineering.

And yeah, so I, I, I guess maybe it's just part of my own, like, obviously I'm doing this for me, but I. Because I'm very conscious of my platform and privilege and being in these more public spaces, I want to just show women that it's okay to question, like, if, you know, if there's an element where you're doubting, if you should kind of be in a space or you're being reminded that you're good where you are, or, [00:44:00] Hey, why don't you be grateful for this thing that you have?

And for some, by the way, like if that works for them or circumstantially, it's safer to kind of stay in that space and not rock the boat because of whatever reason. Cool. Like, I'm not saying like you should always kind of push forward and take risks and whatever, because it's very dependent on your circumstance.

I just had nothing on the hook and I guess I always believed that. Like could maybe find what I was looking for in the next place. And I've been really lucky. And I, I know that it's, I I'm like a living proof that it's possible, I guess, but it's, I know it's not for everyone. So, you know, I don't want that to come across in this either.

David Fano: I also think it's one of those things that is like compounding. And so it's like the sooner you bet on yourself, the more comfort you have in betting on yourself. Right? So you started with making that bet on yourself at 22 and taking that job that frankly like [00:45:00] empirically most people more, so women would have said, I'm not qualified.

I'm going to bow out of this and you didn't, you said, yeah, I know. Yeah. I mean, on paper, not qualified, but I'm betting on myself to do it. And you know, I would imagine that it's like, wait, I've done it before I can do this again. And that just becomes this like virtuous cycle.

Rachel Gogel: Totally. I mean, there's something to be said about the confidence that I not in like a.

I, you know, egotistical way, but just having the confidence in myself to be able to enter spaces that I feel like maybe I could do 80% of this job and I'll learn the 20% while I'm there. And I'll just, I know everyone says fake it till you make it. But like it's a real thing. And being okay with that discomfort and not feeling like a fraud, I think there's also these terms around imposter syndrome and whatever.

I never felt like an imposter. I just, I just [00:46:00] knew that I would learn by doing it and, you know, kind of would often check in with myself on a regular basis to be like, how am I feeling? Like, am I still. Living my truth. Am I, do I still feel like I'm being challenged? Am I still learning? Am I being pushed enough?

Um, and then, you know, when I would get to a point where I'm answering those and saying, oh, I'm not learning anymore. I don't feel challenged. I don't feel I can, can grow. Those were usually signs where I was like, okay, maybe it's time to me. That's decoupled from like being grateful for the opportunity.

Again, like don't want to, like, I will always appreciate those brands and the people I worked with and some idea of friends, I met my wife at work, you know, there's so many great highlights from all of these experiences, but it was all about kind of me and being put into spaces where I felt like I could give back to the community and also be pushed and challenged for my [00:47:00] own benefit.

But really I I've, you know? Yeah. Just kind of have always taken rest in your right. Maybe it was that being, having. Having them put in a position at 22 that felt uncomfortable. And then having, you know, a certain number of years where I kept kind of just gaining that confidence and knowing that it was okay.

And that, I mean, maybe that's what led me to start my own business finally, but generally, yeah, I think that's the message is, is just constantly kind of checking in with yourself and, you know, not kind of playing into the stereotype.

David Fano: Yeah. This is a tricky tension between ambition and gratitude, right?

Cause at one, you know, one podcast you're listening to, it's just, just take it in, be happy with who you are. Everything's. I don't want anything don't want more. And then there's another party that's like, I want to grow. I wanted to experience this. I want to try new things. And I just feel like we're all being bombarded with these, like with this advice and guidance on how to be happy, how to be fulfilled, but then also want more and not want more.[00:48:00]

So I think it's tricky to send it, navigate all that stuff and the feelings, you know, like how to wrestle with

Rachel Gogel: those things. I think what's very topical of them now, as you know, as you're reading about the great resignation or reshuffle awakening, all these words, you know, the great blank is that I think some people are waking up a little bit and questioning how they're spending their time and what you know, that maybe they can find jobs that are equally fulfilling and pay well and give them good work-life balance.

And, you know, I think we're almost like, or certain industries or spaces kind of put you in certain past where you're, you're almost. Meant to kind of go down a certain way and that's how it is. And that's how it's always been. And I feel like people, you know, maybe a small silver lining from the pandemic, which is just giving people the space and time to like, really [00:49:00] think about how they want to spend their lives.

And I don't know, I guess I didn't need a pandemic for me to like, think about that early on. I think I was always really conscious about how to spend my time on this planet. How will I make something meaningful? How will I give back to the world? I've always seen design as a tool for change and I've, I always try and give back to the community.

And that's why I started that job newsletter. It was because I wanted to help people enter these spaces who may have not been able to had, you know, I not help them maybe unlock a certain way forward and. I don't know. I welcome. I welcome what's happening right now in the industry. There's like, uh, I am glad that people are rethinking a little bit how they want to spend their time.

And, you know, I do hope that people find spaces where they can also feel more fulfilled because yeah, our time on this planet [00:50:00] is precious and if they can do their job and make an okay living and also be happy, great, a

David Fano: hundred percent. All right. So now you're at Facebook. Must've been a big change here in California tech company, totally different picking up whole new experiences, really building those muscles of comfort with discomfort, you know, what were some of the major moments there and, you know, and, and kind of what, what lasting impact did that

Rachel Gogel: have?

I've never worked for a company that built visual systems for 2 billion. Now, 3 billion people. The pressure was very high. I helped lead a program called cultural moments. And it was at the time it no longer exists. But if you remember in the app at the top of your feed, sometimes it would say happy Valentine's day, Dave, you know, or happy new year, Dave.

So we had this like global calendar [00:51:00] of events and we'd create messages on behalf of Facebook and push them out to people. And this was a time where Facebook was trying to figure out their voice, what they looked like, what they sounded like they suddenly would like be communicating to people. So Facebook was like basically faceless for awhile.

They were in the background. They weren't bothering you. You would never hear from face. And suddenly they increased their communication up in the app almost to the point where it was too much. They would be talking to you all the time and it was annoying. But you know, the goal of this program was interesting because we were trying to balance, you know, how do you show up in someone's feed when something meaningful and like tie it back to a cultural happening.

I led a team of papercraft artists for a little bit, knew nothing about papercraft.

David Fano: I followed that artist on Instagram

Rachel Gogel: for a long time. Oh yeah. Uh, which

David Fano: one I'm forgetting his name right now. That [00:52:00] feels right. He would make like cheeseburgers and like all sorts of cool stuff.

Rachel Gogel: Okay. So yeah, there was this team of some of the best papercraft artists in the world.

I mean, we've, we got someone from Australia, from England, from the U S um, I honestly didn't totally know what I was walking into. I was just convinced, you know, the woman who hired me really liked what she represented. She was this like powerful woman who worked at pentagram, which is this big design studio.

Then she worked at Dropbox. So she had this exposure in tech. She lived in San Francisco for a few years before I got here. And she was my manager for a while now we're friends, which is great, but I like took a bet to kind of like work with this woman. But the idea was that. Help scale papercraft, which sounds absurd.

I mean, that's just not possible. We tried, or at least tried to kind of prove that it wasn't scalable. This was a bet that they had kind of chosen to invest in [00:53:00] before me or Kristen, um, had arrived, but they were super talented. I learned a lot about the craft and honestly, a lot of people in the world have no idea that that was papercraft.

I think they assume it was just CGI or 3d or something, but no, they were like physically making objects on their desks and then we would shoot it and put it in your feed. But essentially over time we introduced digital illustration motion. We turned it into like a full service studio. Papercraft ended up kind of moving out of the app.

And a lot of what you see today is digital illustration. But I loved Facebook because, you know, I learned a lot about building really complex visual systems for a global. Audience, um, and you know, thinking about how the product design and these visual elements would interact, I would be in the room talking about the Facebook brand, although at the time, you know, they shied away from even using the term brand.

I think they were [00:54:00] just, they were, there was this phase. It was like right before Trump was elected before Cambridge Analytica happened, you know, Facebook was still viewed positively in the world generally. And I would, you know, we would just be like looking at these cultural moments with executives in the room, like the CMO and whoever being like, like, how should we like talk to this person in Japan about this holiday?

It almost, you know, obviously that doesn't happen anymore. Um, but I felt really privileged to be in the new spaces. And that was also at a time when Facebook was much smaller than it is now. And yeah, I just, I w this pushed me more into, I already moved fast, but this moved me onto a new level of pace, you know, to be able to multitask or be present in different spaces at the same time.

There's something about tech that I don't know somehow puts you into a new type of brain [00:55:00] space, or like, I don't know, like I can't put my finger on it, but I met some really smart people. I learned a lot about systems. I learned a lot about kind of balancing data and learnings with more qualitative, subjective, you know, uh, feedback.

And that was this kind of beautiful thing, because when you work in a company that's engineering or product led and you're creative, You know, you you're almost seemed more of like a supporting role for like the app and being able to kind of push our team to be respected almost as equally as the product designers, because like, just to show them the power of, you know, words or motion or whatever and how that can enhance the user experience.

And so that really was, my charge was kind of pushing on, you know, putting this team more on the map and having creative be kind of respected more in these [00:56:00] kinds of tech spaces. Um, and that's not too uncommon. Most tech companies, you have creative teams, but they're not only paid differently, but usually plays symptom or supporting functions.

And, you know, like most people, I actually left my job because Kristen who I mentioned hired me, she left for another job. And I was basically there for about five months, maybe without her. And I, I liked it in that. I, I basically got her job, uh, for an interim moment and my scope grew and I appreciated being faced with coming up with, you know, I had to build like a roadmap for the next year and was responsible for more complicated things.

And I I'm grateful for that, but I wasn't inspired as much by leadership. And I questioned if this was something I wanted to be doing. Long-term and that's really what, I don't know. I was attracted to the idea of leaving in house. I had never worked for like a proper kind of like agency side of things.

[00:57:00] So I was eyeing this like new little design studio that had just been rebranded. A lot of former publishing people from wired magazine. And went to the studio. And one of the founders is the, uh, used to be the editor in chief of wired. And I was intrigued. I was like, huh, maybe I could go be amongst my old tribe, like the publishing people, but stay in California and also work for an agency.

And so I cold emailed them. I didn't know any of them. And I ended up writing my own job description and met a lot of them. And I ended up leaving Facebook in 2019 to work for the small design studio called Godfrey data partners. So that was my, that was my next gig.

David Fano: Again, it's like taking this initiative.

I think it's so cool. Listening to things like having some clarity, comfort with acknowledging like the current situations. It's not bad. It's just not as good as it could be. [00:58:00] And I'm going to try to figure out what that next thing is. So tell us a little bit about that and, and it sounds like you got to work someone on some incredible projects, and then you got to a place where like, I'm going to go do this on my own, which I think a lot of people wrestle with and, you know, that's a big leap, but

Rachel Gogel: talk us through that.

So for people who know me, well, I've probably been talking about starting my own little practice since college, but I kept being pulled into these spaces and I, you know, maybe it just wasn't the right time, obviously. And I was kind of collecting these skill sets and experiences from job to job. So the timing, you know, now I think it was just the right time, but I I've been intrigued by doing that for some time and have always to your point, you know, you're pointing out this idea that.

You know, was taking initiative to kind of move to the next thing and making it happen for myself. I think so I have this entrepreneurial spirit. That's probably just been part of my DNA. And [00:59:00] honestly, I just had breakfast with my dad this morning. Like I definitely got it from my dad. I moved around in different companies as CEO for my whole life.

So it's part of it's I guess, in my DNA, but yeah, I ended up working for the small design studio. Great experience as well. Very small, very different. I mean, I was used to working for huge companies with many employees. This studio was really small, maybe 50 people or something. Um, and I was leading the design team.

I really appreciate that experience because it, I think it really pushed me on my craft. I think most of my jobs, I was learning a lot about business and organizational culture and strategy and kind of navigating these big technological changes. And my craft was good. I like, if I look back at my old work, um, I, it was kind of me determining it, but because people above me, most of my [01:00:00] bosses, weren't creative directors or like heading creatives, they were other types of functions.

So I was never. Being pushed on or given feedback about my creative work. Whereas this job really was like almost going to grad school and being, you know, pushed on my design skills, even though, you know, I was creative director managing the design team, but even I would find myself into spaces working on design projects and under Scott data in particular, like really being pushed.

Like I can, I can never, like, un-see certain things anymore. Now. I've been like trained in a certain way that I it's like totally changed my game. And I'll never, I'll never forget that. And honestly, had it not been for the pandemic, I don't know. Maybe it's still be there. I liked the projects. There are some in particular, like I loved working with Scott on, he has a [01:01:00] show on Netflix called abstract, the art of design.

Yeah. And he used one of the co-creators and we, as a firm were involved in the promotion of season two when it came out and I was put on the project. So I worked on the KR and oversaw that and then did a lot of the strategy to relaunch the Instagram account for abstract. And it was so fun. Like I loved, as I said earlier, I loved this world of entertainment.

And so it was like me dabbling into that space and helping promote this. No other projects in the brand identity space. And that was also, those were also kind of new experiences for me. So building really complex brand ideas and brand guidelines. I mean, to be honest, that's what helped me get my first client last year as an independent, but yeah, I'm really grateful.

But when, you know, March, 2020 happened and we started working from home, it was hard. It was a big culture shift. And this was historically a company that like had to [01:02:00] work in the office, you know, didn't believe in more flexible work styles. So I think working remotely or being forced to work remotely was like really hard.

And to be honest, I, um, you know, it just, it really pushed me. And the short version of what happened next was that I was being poached by Netflix. And this was as the pandemic is really. Kind of in this peak stage, obviously everyone's watching Netflix. Netflix is doing well, and I was intrigued. They ended up, it was very casual at first it was passive.

I wasn't thinking about leaving my job, but they ended up shaping a job for me and I negotiated a salary and I, it was several months over the summer of that first year of the pandemic. And I also, I have to admit, I also had, um, it was experiencing some health issues at the time. And so who knows how that was affecting my decision, but either way I [01:03:00] resigned.

And again, I, I was not unhappy there. I think maybe ultimately in hindsight, I learned a lot about like how to run like a small studio practice and was so like pushed on my craft, but I, maybe it was too small for me or like I li I like wanted. To maybe again, I had it. I think it really was my like last thing before starting my, it gave me the confidence to like start practice, like, oh, I, I think I can do this.

Um, not that I have the ambition to like launch my own agency yet. I'm, I'm a solo preneur, but anyway, so the story of Netflix was just that, uh, I resigned, I was going to go to Netflix and then my would have been boss got, let go. And then my job, essentially, they like rewrote my job after I had signed a contract and we agreed that like, they [01:04:00] wouldn't get the best out of me and I would not be happy there because it wasn't the exact job that I signed up for.

So we terminated the role. I had negotiated a severance and that's really like, I think there was this moment where I was like, all right, I have the severance. I'm going to take a little break. And then maybe this is my. I mean, it was kind of forced onto me in a way that I was not going to start this next full-time job.

And I suddenly have this break. Why not just like, I don't know, like see if I can do my own thing. And that's, that was really just this like opening. I was going to take a longer break. Cause I, as I said, I had some health things come up, but maybe 10 days went by and I got a message on LinkedIn, um, from, um, someone who I had worked with when I was at the New York times who works for an agency called giant spoon.

And they had just won this account with American express to relaunch departures magazine. And this was this [01:05:00] moment. I think it was like, meant to be because it was asking for like all of the things that I had learned from my, all of my career experiences published. Product strategy, you know, building teams.

I mean, it was like the sat at the intersection of all the things and they came to me needing my help to pull off this project. I obviously couldn't say no. So I signed an NDA and we couldn't talk about it for a while and such, and then it finally launched last June and I'm like really proud of that work.

That was definitely after the times being one of the hardest things. This was definitely close second, or if not similarly challenging, especially because we built departures in a pandemic with a distributed team and like, yeah, very, very proud of that project. But technically that was my first client and yeah, here I am doing my own thing.

I have, [01:06:00] Airbnb is my second client and I'm doing some outreach to. Thanks through other elements, but I'm really, really excited about this year because I'm have the time and space to really think more about the types of projects I want to work on or who I want to work with. And, um, I've been really wanting to teach again.

I used to teach when I was in New York at, at SVA and, um, I'm really happy. I'm going to be teaching this summer at the California college of the arts. And it's a leadership class. It's called leadership by design. And then I'm, I'm doing more speaking. So I think my like dream scenario now is like speaking, teaching consulting and having a few sources of income.

And honestly, just also spending time with my wife and friends and cat and like enjoying this time and place. And I. I feel good too, because my health is getting better as well. And I, I, this was also this moment that was pushed on to me, I think to even force, [01:07:00] like I had time to focus on my health and that was a huge thing for me.

So yeah. Anyway, it's been quite a journey and I there's a pattern. There's definitely a pattern, but, uh, I I'm, yeah, I it's been really fun. And, um, it was also just like really nice to talk about it and like reflect with you today. Rachel, that

David Fano: was a man. I gonna say, could keep going. There's so many other things I'd love to talk to you about, but out of respect for your time, we'll wrap there.

That was awesome. Awesome. Awesome. How can folks follow along? Are you on, maybe you're not on social media, maybe you are, but maybe your consultancy and what's the best way for people to stay up to date with what you've got going on.

Rachel Gogel: Sure. Yeah, no, thanks. I um, so I have a website, it's just my name. So R a C H E L G O G E l.com.

Um, I'm also on social at R G O G E L. That's my handle on Instagram and Twitter. I just launched earlier this year, [01:08:00] kind of a passion project also on Instagram at the design culturalist, it's essentially like my, it's almost like a visualization of what we just talked about. I basically, I'm going back in the archive and sharing stories about design projects from my whole career.

I haven't even made it past, I think GQ days. Um, but I, you know, I'm trying to, like, I think something that's easy to do, especially as a designer is you continually just like move on to the next thing. And I really wanted to like, remember, and somehow. Pay homage to some projects and like have some kind of digital record of stories.

And I also wanted to like share it out more publicly. So it's been a really fun project. So yeah, if you're interested and follow along, but yeah. Reached out, uh, just really fun to reflect. I think the moral of the story is never give up.

David Fano: [01:09:00] And that's it for this episode of Non Linear. If you enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe, share, and rate us wherever you listen to podcasts.|

You can learn more about Teal in our website tealhq.com, or follow us on social media @teal_hq. Thanks again, and please join us again to keep hearing about how we make decisions that shape our careers.