David Fano: [00:00:00] today. We're with Sam Lee, who like many guests I've had the pleasure of working with actually I think I did one of Sam's first interviews that we work in. I left the room saying we have to have. This person immediately. They're incredible. But better to hear directly from Sam Sam, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Sam Lee: Great. Dave, so great to be on the podcast and always great to be with you. As Dave said, my name is Sam Lee, I'm the founder of IndeCollective. And I'd say I'm a multi. So many of you I wouldn't put myself into a box I've worked across a couple of industries starting off in finance at Goldman worked in internet two innings at [00:01:00] turnarounds.

And then, tried my hand at startups is that we work with Dave and most recently have founded my own company and do a bunch of great consulting work. So I've done a couple different things. And I'm excited to explore that.

David Fano: Awesome. Thank you. Yeah. I feel like you've had a very balanced career in terms of, if we think about careers, it's like portfolios, you have nice diversified portfolio in terms of experiences, which is cool, because I think a lot of people have asked around that.

And they don't think about it as experientially. So with that, I like to kick off the conversation with when was the first time in your life? You started to think a little bit more deliberately about your career and like what you wanted to do, not necessarily making money and the, Hey, I want to be a veterinarian when I grow up, unless that's really what you wanted to be like my daughter.

But you were like really taking actions and I could see myself doing this.

Sam Lee: Yeah. I used that word already. Multihyphenate and I feel like it's a word that I'm [00:02:00] seeing. More and more frequently used by people to identify themselves. So to just unpack that word for me to be a multihyphenate means to, to acknowledge and embrace the different dimensions of who you are.

And I think there's a couple of words that I would use to describe myself. I am saying. And these kind of harken back to childhood, frankly. And if I was to think about some childhood touchstone moments it's where I first identified with these words. So I'd say those words include voice, being a voice being a creative.

Somebody who's making things being an adventure, pushing my boundaries and other people's boundaries and then being a lover, somebody who takes care of myself and also other people. And when I think about career, I'd say the first kind of touchstone moment, actually, it goes back to the high school area or era and my childhood.

And actually has nothing to do with career, but has informed, I'd say much of my work. And that started really with coming out of the closet. And [00:03:00] I say that was informative for my career and certainly my life, because it was that transformational moment when I made the decision at 16, that I was no longer going to hide that I finally came into my boy.

Both, with my family and getting much closer to family that I had felt like I wasn't as close to or open with, but also my community. And that was where I found my voice and fi found a level of comfort in who I was and then very quickly became that creator.

And for me, that meant. Starting a gay straight Alliance. It was a new concept, certainly the first in my community creating a network around that and linked up with hundreds of other kids across the U S who were starting to introduce these into their schools and let a big conference around that.

And that kind of catapulted me into not just finding my own voice, but helping others to find theirs and then create community around that. So that was when I found connection to those two words that then I've now carried [00:04:00] through as a thread, I'd say my entire career.

So I'd say that's been a really important moment. And finding that, that kind of anchor in terms of who I am. Some multihyphenate. I love

David Fano: that. Cause I, and you might make me change that question go forward. Cause I, at least for me the career goal, and when people asked me, I said, cause to find things that you like doing, and that you're good at.

If you can find that intersection, you're going to have a limitless supply of energy and life, right at the scene, these things are going to charge you up. And of course, we're all going to do things that we're not good at. And we don't like doing, we're going to do things that we're good at. And we actually don't like doing but really is if we can have the majority of the time being the things that we're good at and that we enjoy doing, and it feels.

That was a time in your life that those two things came together in the absence of is this thing going to make me money? Is it gonna provide my livelihood? Because frankly I really believe those come secondary. If you can actually get to do things that you're good at and you like doing

Sam Lee: 100%, 100%, and I'll say, I've.

Gotten multiple different career [00:05:00] vehicles. I've been at big companies that were succeeding. I've been at turnarounds that have been flailing and that needed a big boost. I've been at hypergrowth startups and now I've started my own thing from the ground up. And I'd say it's in each of those moments, not necessarily in the first step, but at some point, once I was in my flow, that I, that I.

Into that intersection of where I had strength and where I found energy. So I think if you can be living at the intersection of those two things for hopefully the majority of your time, you're going to be, you're going to be thriving, which means success and fulfillment.

David Fano: All right. So what did you do with.

That discovery about yourself that, I like doing this. I like helping people. I like being a voice that, that understanding of yourself at honestly, an incredibly young age, I feel like that's, that was awesome to unlock that, that early. What did that then? What decisions did you make?

No. Yep.

Sam Lee: Absolutely. So I think with that discovery in myself, I [00:06:00] was more able to connect with mentors because I was more authentic. And when I was standing for, and also standing out in the areas where I was unique people were drawn to. I had adults, I had other young people who were looking for ways to support me and further elevate the work that I was trying to do.

So that, that was a very it's probably an obvious thing, but for a young person, it wasn't obvious to me at the time. So I really leaned into just. Not worrying about all the things that I could be doing, but instead leaning into the things were, I could add unique value. And I'd say that was something that I then have carried through.

Again, my whole career. It's not trying to be good at everything, but really to stand out and to lean into those things where you found strength. So I'd say another kind of distinctive inflection point. Was psychologically shifting my mindset around what had been termed a discipline.

So when I was in, in K through 12, I had [00:07:00] trouble with reading in the early days. I then had trouble keeping up with some of my classmates in, in the fast paced classroom. And while I wasn't diagnosed with a specific learning disability, they threw the kitchen sink at me and said, oh, you got a little bit of this, a little bit of that.

And my dad had been dyslexic and there'd been different things in my family. And I remember in the early days of school, I found that incredibly. Limiting, it's oh, there's something wrong with me. How do I how do I succeed in school? How do I get into a great college?

How do I then have a great career? Cause I wanted those things and it wasn't until I had exited school after so much efforting and I did get the A's, but it was because I put so much effort in and I put in the extra hours and got the tutoring. It wasn't until I got out of school and into my first real job at Goldman Sachs.

Where I was getting 360 feedback. Cause they were really good about 360 feedback. God bless them. That I was the guy that people were going to when they needed something in a moment's notice, which was shocking to me because I had always been [00:08:00] given extra time at school. I had time and a half or two times the time to complete the tests and to write the essay.

And and there's no, you're the guy that we go to. All right, we really need something quickly. And then I got another piece of feedback from multiple different partners. Cause I was chief of staff in their executive office and it's Sam, you're the guy that we go to when we need to solve the complex problems that involve human dynamics that involve us motivating and mobilizing other people.

To get stuff done. And of course I was like the youngest person in the executive office or one of the youngest people in the executive office. So it was a couple of these points of feedback when I got the 360 that made me realize that what had been diagnosed as a set of learning disabilities was actually a set of strengths.

I was a different type of learner. I was certainly a different type of connector and an executer. If I leaned into those things and the things that frankly great mentors started to reflect back at me that if I leaned into those things, I could actually be a catalyst within [00:09:00] organizations and a catalyst for mentees and a catalyst for people that needed help.

So I'd say that was the second key insight. It's, reframe some of the things that you think are challenges. Get some surround sound. So you can hopefully not just reframe them into something a bit more manageable, but identify what might be super power that live beneath them. So how

David Fano: how'd you land at Goldman?

Like it's a super prestigious, incredible company. You know what we're. Some of the actions you took to get there. Cause it didn't seem like you were in the finance industry, but you were chief of staff there, which is like generalist position. A lot of people don't even know what titles to apply for,

Sam Lee: How'd that happen?

Absolutely. So in terms of, career arc after high school, I went to UPenn a lot of efforting in high school, a hell of a lot of efforting at U Penn. Cause it was a really competitive. I was like, I like to jokingly call myself library boy. Like I was in there at [00:10:00] 9:00 AM when they opened the library on Sunday.

Cause like I was be damned if I wasn't going to succeed. So I really put in a lot of effort and it was because I still had this belief that I needed. To do all this extra work in order to succeed. And to some extent, within a very kind of routinized educational context I did cause it took me a bit longer to read that stuff.

It took me a bit longer to memorize. I'm not a good memorizer. I'm really great at getting into contexts and solving problems and then motivating people to get stuff done. But memorizing stuff. Wasn't my kind of superpower. So yeah, it was a lot of efforting through school. And when I got out of school I actually started my career in international development.

So I was working at world bank and an early mentor there, SEMA SaaS, impor an Iranian national who was leading the technology division, where I work said, Sam you're. And look around me. Everyone's got a PhD, myself included. If you really want to succeed in this environment, one of the things you'll need is advanced.

So just go back to school, right? I support you. All right. Write your [00:11:00] recommendation. So I did that and I pretty immediately, after a year of full-time work, went back to school and I went to Kennedy school at Harvard. I studied public policy thinking I'm going to continue going down this path. And it was while doing that work and doing real time, like internship experiences during school.

And during the summer that I realized that path wasn't going to be. Which was a pretty stark realization a year into doing a very expensive public policy degree at a great school. And it was in that moment that I then looked for adjacent opportunities that would leverage what I had learned and that I could hopefully parlay into some.

'cause, I didn't want to do public policy. It felt too bureaucratic. It felt like you needed to like, so gradually walk up, climb this ladder and it just didn't feel like that was going to be the context in which I'd thrive. So I was lucky enough through frankly, great networking. I always am looking for ways to meaningfully connect and meaningfully connecting for me.

Having something to give as well as having something clear that you can ask for help around. So [00:12:00] I always have been focused on that and through networking through the alumni network at Kennedy school, I networked into a conversation at Goldman Sachs. And this guy, Chris, who was actually an alum of Penn.

I had been doing work through the gay straight Alliance with him. He had then gone to Kennedy schools. Who've been somebody that mentored me along the way. He said, I'm at Goldman now let's have a conversation. So I got in conversation. I started in an interview process and I was an inch away from accepting a role in their investor relations department.

And I had studied, I didn't know a damn thing about investor relations to be totally honest. And they knew that but thankfully big organizations like Goldman Sachs. As long as you've got the chops, you're smart. You're going to work hard and learn. They'll hire anybody. You can be an author like you, you can write poems, like they'll still consider you in the early entry-level.

So they were considering me, but it was in the final round interview with this amazing guy, Dane Holmes. And he's worth looking up because he's had a really interesting career himself. [00:13:00] The Dane said, Sam, I like your energy. I like your smarts. You could have this role and I'll give it to you, but I'd rather introduce you to somebody more interesting who could really use your help and who I think you'll get on with.

So he walked me down the hall to Dina, Powell who's an interesting woman who. Former, public policy Wiz now financial leader who was at the intersection of all things, Goldman Sachs public policy and philanthropy. So that's actually where I started.

And then from there, continued to evolve in my career at the executive office. So long story short, it starts with networking and always having something to give and something clear to ask for. And then, by and by developing relations. Did you finish Harvard? I did. Yeah. Okay. Two year program finished it.

David Fano: Awesome. All right. So you learned a lot there built more relationships with more mentors. Learned a whole new industry had done some stuff at the world bank. What's that next moment where I talk about what I call like the career growth loop, where you search for something you then [00:14:00] transition, you, learn you on.

And then you develop and what most, most of us go through is that development starts to plateau and then we search again. Yup. So what was that moment for you there? Where, you'd hit a plateau whether it was presented to you or you went looking for it, but that next moment of

Sam Lee: searching came.

Yup. So I was about two and a half years into to my time at Goldman. Had been thrown into the fire so many times and I'd say found myself in a lot of ways, it was in that experience and in those three sixties and in the great sounding board that I realized, oh my gosh, I'm not disabled. And I'm really good at a lot of things.

And also I can do them quickly. Make myself do them quickly, right? It's like I don't have to be in analysis paralysis. So that was a really formative two and a half years. But also in those two and a half years, I realized that starting as a junior person and an executive environment, Means that there's a very quick glass ceiling, right?

I'd already been promoted. There was no path for [00:15:00] continued growth. And the people that I was working with while they were incredible, mentors would have loved to have kept me in that role for an extended period, because they now knew how I worked. I complimented them liking to yang and it just worked. So I knew that if I wanted to grow and also find a career path in an industry that would allow me to leverage some of these superpowers that were talking about.

I'd need to switch careers again. And it was only two and a half years into this one. So I started interviewing and it was again through, through great networking that I connected with the guy that we both know Francis Lobo. So Francis was a really interesting conversation and I'd say, I've now had other conversations like this, but it was the first I'd ever had, like this one.

Cause I was, in my mid twenties, in that first 30 minute conversation, probably 15 minutes. And you said, so what do you really want to do Sam? Like I already know, there's a couple of areas that you can help me. And we had already covered those areas. But he said, [00:16:00] what do you really want to do?

And I knew the answer to that, I had an answer formulated and I knew what some of the inputs were. At least I thought I did. I said, Francis, I want to be a general manager. I'd love to work for somebody who. Done that and who can teach me the ropes so that in a few years time, I could be stepping into that role myself.

And I was leaving Goldman because there was no world in which as a non-financial person, I could be running the revenue side of a business. It just didn't equate. But I figured hopping ship working in the internet industry where I was a native to that industry where, I was a user of the products and could learn the products and learn the business.

I felt like that was more of a natural path for me. So he immediately. Great. I know how you can help me in the next two to three years and I'd be prepared to invest in you and make sure that in two to three years, you're in that place. And when he said that, I was like, by God sold, like I'm there for it.

So I think really being able to lean into instinct and when you see something that feels right. Not lecture. What's your logical mind trick you [00:17:00] into overly second guessing or litigating it too much is a really important thing. And why is that? Because everybody that I spoke to that was a close in family member or mentor had me second guessing.

And I said, Nope, I had a great conversation. I'm confident that this guy, whether the company works out or not is going to invest in me. I went with it, and the company was. So let's LOL about that for a second, because AOL at the time was like a total turnaround. It was a nightmare. And this was off the back of Goldman Sachs, right?

The most prestigious financial institution where I was working with like the head honchos and I had met Warren buffet and mayor Bloomberg. And it was just been like such a star-studded experience to go to a turnaround. Everyone was like, what are you talking about? That doesn't make any sense, but I was like no.

I think the role is right. I have super powers that I can lend to helping this guy Francis succeed. And he's indicated that he takes an interest and wants to support my vision for career. [00:18:00] Like those three things were undeniably, just home runs in my mind. So I did it. And I'd say that was the next inflection point, finding a mentor who took an interest in me and my career.

And guess what, we worked at three companies get. Thereafter. So AOL was success that actually did turn around and it was a financial and product outcome. And Francis went on to another company, another internet turnaround, and he was the CEO of that company. I followed him. I was the one person that he took along and we, did some cool things there.

And guess what? At that next company? Manager a few people. By the end of my experience, I had a hundred million dollar P and L I had a team of 400 people. And I was doing things in that two to three-year time horizon that I just, I dreamed of and thought wouldn't have been possible. So I think really lining up with those people.

I want to

David Fano: talk about that for a second. Cause I feel like you experienced something that a lot of people experience, but you came at it with. [00:19:00] This courage and commitment to being you and pursuing, you'd had prior experiences in life that sort of helped you build those muscles. I think a lot of people go to who they think they should for career advice.

And I think what people end up telling you is what they think you should do versus what they, as you would do. So I would imagine, I can't imagine there was very many people that thought leaving Goldman Sachs was a good idea.

Sam Lee: None. None thought it was a good idea, especially not for a turnaround.

Or for a leader at a turnaround. So Francis was an interesting story, right? He had grown up through the ranks and had, had a really star started career at AOL from like being a junior analyst in Bangalore, which is where he was from. To becoming a president at the company and, in the C-suite, but he had done it in a matter of years.

Looking at the logical talk track, it just didn't totally add up. And there were very smart [00:20:00] and caring people in my universe, including great mentors that were like, I don't know, this might not be the thing you jump for, but I did lean into the intuition there. And most importantly, I leaned into somebody.

Took real interest in me, my career and who had benefited from great mentors and wanted to share that mentorship with me.

David Fano: What tips would you have for someone to try to discern that in a conversation? At the time, maybe you didn't have that kind of like a career instrumentation, but today, especially since you help people, you do a lot of coaching.

You do a lot of mentoring. What's what should someone be looking for? Like in an interview, if we took this frame of, I joined people, not companies, what do you look for? Especially as you've gone to such great company. W what should people look for in that

Sam Lee: process? Yep.

So I'll say when I was at we work and, following your great leadership, I had the chance through my teams to hire 500 people. And, I was hiring every single one of them, myself for probably the first hundred. And then as [00:21:00] we kept on growing, it was every manager and above I was interviewing.

And I personally looked at their resumes. I personally took interest in every person. I got so many nice emails after, interviews, not just to say I'm so interested in the position, but thank you for acknowledging this or that or taking interest in something that I said. So I think look for a hiring manager that is actually taking interest in you as a.

Either coming with some little nugget or kernel that they've observed in your resume in something that you've already presented to the team, because the team's organized and they're filtering up. And if not that cause we're busy, right? There was interviews that I couldn't do that level of prep for, although I tried to do it where I would listen and then ask a smart question in.

Drawing on their experience or drawing on a smart question that they had asked me. So I'd say that's really important if somebody's really interested in this interview and you in particular. And then when you're [00:22:00] in an organization, I would really keep an eye for people that are sending out signals that, that they want to help.

So I, we work at about a hundred mentees, and people are like, how the heck did you do that? And it was a hundred mentees a year. And it would be people that I'd meet in travels and people that I'd meet in HQ that were hungry for a mentor. And we would have three touch points. Generally, if it could happen over lunch and it was pretty routine, it was like a, get to know you session where I could reflect back some of your superpowers and then two touch points where it was like, how can I help?

So look for leaders and look for middle managers that are looking to really connect meaningfully and to provide that mentorship because a lot of people would like to. Say misdoing that, now that I've got my own thing and I'm not working in a big organization and I looked for ways to mentor people and people seek me out for it.

David Fano: Yet you still have your own language from before. It seems look for people that are looking [00:23:00] to meaningfully connect. And you get a nice definition for that. It where some might think it's transactional, but it's no. It's like what, in the context of work, what do I need from you? And what can I do for you?

Yeah. And so if the inner context of an interview, if you start to listen for it, it's probably not hard to identify is this person actually asking questions that help them understand what they can do for me

Sam Lee: A hundred percent. And I think people that really want to meaningfully connect and leaders that want to mentor will reference that, right?

Like I've referenced that in my interviews, especially with direct reports. It's here's how I work with the director. We're going to, we're going to, co-create something I'm hiring you because I appreciate that you have expertise that I don't have. I want to help you learn the organization.

I want to position you for success. I want to get you into a role that's bigger and greater than mine, right? And let's figure out how to do that in the next 18 to 24 months. So I would signal that to people and I think great leaders and hiring [00:24:00] managers. We'll be doing that. So keep an eye out for that.

And if they're not doing that, or if you can't read the tea leaves and see that they're going to be doing that, they might not be the right hiring manager for you.

David Fano: So I think there's two great sort of nuggets there. If you're pursuing a job, look for people that are interested in your growth and the kind of question they ask for.

And if you're hiring and you actually care and you're not doing this, you're missing out. Make it a point because people are hungry for it. A hundred. I'm going to change my whole hiring process based on this. Eh, cause it's honestly one of those. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like sometimes I'm a little too caught up in vetting when I think about like how we operate versus how we interview those two things actually probably aren't as aligned as they should be.

Thanks for that. Okay. So you go to three companies with Frances. I have the pleasure of knowing Francis he's awesome, high energy all the time. And I think that's an interesting thing also, is it you, because I've seen this happen when like leaders make changes one, it's a great indication that [00:25:00] great people come with them.

And so a lot of good things about that, but also does it, it's a conscious decision to move with somebody and versus being okay. Cool. That was great. You helped me get here now. I'm going to go do my own thing. often joke around. Little kids and they're so determined to feed themselves.

It's this innate human thing, which we're going to get to in a minute, but do my own thing. I can do it myself. But you chose to go with Francis to three different companies. So what why'd you do that? And how did that end up shaking out for you?

Sam Lee: Yeah. So I'd say. Two motivators for me that have been pretty consistent over the course of my career have been a desire to grow.

And I think, this Dave cause I, we work like push push to expand what I was doing, change what I was doing. Try to find new ways to add value. So growth is an important one for me. And then I'd say the second is contribution right? In my, in a seat where I can really make an impact to the business, but also to the people that I get to touch in the business and the [00:26:00] clients and all that good stuff.

For me, it was just a really simple decision at each of those inflections to continue moving forward with Francis, because at each turn there was an opportunity to grow and contribute. So when we went from AOL to United online while it was the same industry and a similar state of play, a turnaround for an internet conglomerate we were entering.

The first chapter of this thing, not tying out the bow on like the turnaround. And I was not entering as a mid-level manager. I was coming in as like head of strategy for the company. And then. When I continued on and I was there for about three years, ultimately stepped into the general management role and was responsible for hundreds of people and a P and L.

And so those opportunities to grow attribute were just present. And then when I went to WeWork and Francis and RD and others who had worked with at AOL and United online went to we work. It was again, exactly what I needed at that moment, because I was hungry. [00:27:00] At that point, not do another turnaround.

I'd seen that. I'd seen that show. I had learned those skills and I really wanted a new context in which to flex muscles and learn, grow, and contribute. So that was an obvious next step. And I came in a role that was fine, it wasn't like the dream role. I ultimately.

Because I evolve with the company and was able to roll with the punches. I moved into roles that really suited me and growth really suited me. And it was a new thing for the company, this notion of having this organization and doing these things. So it just worked right.

But I think. Having those two things growth and contribution. If I could check those boxes, that made sense to keep moving forward with Francis and we parted ways per se now, we're not working on the same company we haven't been for years. But we're still super close. He's a mentor. He's a friend.

I know his kids like in his beautiful wife route bus. So yeah, I'd say it's a great relationship still to this day.

David Fano: That's awesome. One of the things I'm [00:28:00] hearing is you pursue experience. And I think a lot of people don't approach things that way, that, or lack the language or tooling, right?

Like I was in a turnaround and obviously you've got skills and abilities and maybe that, that then becomes secondary. It's I know that those are the things I want to do, but I want to instantiate them in this experience. And I've got a list of experiences I would like to have, and I'm going to try to go to places or be in situations that enable me to have them.

Would you say that it was like that intentional and that, that is

Sam Lee: How you were thinking about it? Yeah. So first I'd say, I wish we could have this conversation every day. This is such a fun conversation, but I'm a little uncanny because I do say pretty regularly or when I was mentoring people at greater scale, I would always say life and work or a tapestry of experiences.

I think the most important thing to be as a storyteller the stories you tell yourself, the beliefs that you have, the things that you [00:29:00] hold true, create your experience, which you believe about yourself, what you believe about your community, what you believe about the world informs how you approach situations, opportunities, whether you sees them or you don't.

So I think being a storyteller is powerful. And of course this conversation is in great hindsight, so easy to storytell and explain the through line. Now that it's happened. But I'll say, jumping forward to the present moment, never would, I have thought a couple of years ago and never, would you have thought that we work would have been a colossal left turn and false start with an IPO and then so sadly in team and a team of 500, I had to lay off a lot of people before I was out right before I was out on my butt.

So I think. There've been a lot of, as much as there's been high highs, there's been low lows. And I think I'm appreciating that even when it's not clear where the story's going, that life and work are a tapestry of experiences and that your super powers of [00:30:00] the things that you can carry forward.

And that as you're is you're taking the left and right. Turns in your career. Cause we're probably all multi hyphenates. We're all non-linear that you can continue to draw on those. As you embark on that next piece of that tapestry. So

David Fano: something I know you're really good at is also goal setting and it's something you're super passionate about and this idea of experiences that could feel a little more ephemeral goals by definition.

Like maybe not measurable, but understandable as achievable. Yep. How have you thought about. The intersection of those?

Sam Lee: Yes. Yep. So I've thought a lot about goals in the last couple years. Both in relation to the company that I've been building. And then also as I was leaving, we work and going independent versus a consultant.

Now as a consultant and company builder, what were my priorities? What did I really want to tackle in this next piece of the tapestry? So one, I'd say when I think about goals [00:31:00] now, I like to think about three. You're living your lifestyle and your loving. So what are your goals around your living? How you want to do your work, how you want to make your money, how do you want to have your impact through career?

What are your goals on your lifestyle, how you want to show up in the world? And then lastly, what are your goals around? The people, the passion projects, the things that you want to prioritize in your personal life. So I think about all three of those dimensions when I set vision and goals for myself.

And when I work with members through our platform, indie collective, that's a framework that we guide people through in their first week of the experience. And we have a great executive coach come in and do that with us. So I'd say that's how I think about goals now from this multi dimensional perspective and as somebody who is a.

Recovering data junkie because data's important. And we certainly cared some deeply about it and we were, we work. I'd say there's another element beyond like the measurables, the smart [00:32:00] goals that we, everyone talks about smart goals. How do you feel. And what do you want to feel?

So this is something that really only started to really sink in for me in the last probably 12 months. But at the end of the day, the outcomes and the measurables, the things that we're building toward are worth absolutely nothing. If in the process of getting to that destination, you're not feeling what you want to feel, you're not having the experience and enjoying. The experience. So asking yourself this outcome, what do I really want to feel in this outcome? Whether it's in making the money and getting the promotion and, winning the thing and having the relationship what do you want to feel? Is it peace?

Is it love, is a joy, is it, excitement is an adventure. What is that thing? And now let's get specific. Are you feeling that today? Is there some element of what you're doing today that is getting you into that feeling state? Because if the answer is yes, then you've already won, you've achieved your goal.

And sure have the big [00:33:00] lofty goal. I certainly have them. And I'm guessing you do too Dave, but if you can enjoy those feelings in the process of doing it, you've already achieved your measure. And my mind, so that's like the last element I'd say, I think about goals from this three dimensions, living lifestyle loving, and I have very tangible, smart goals around each and I coach people to do that.

Cause I think you should do that, but get to the heart of what do you want to feel. And if you're feeling that, then you're enjoying the process. That's

David Fano: awesome. I love it. All so now in the current Stage phase of your career that you're in moment act chapter. You are helping people. Gain career autonomy, right?

We're in the midst of the great resignation, the great reshuffle, the great recalibration. Everyone's got a name for it, but I would say at the core of it, what's happening is everyone got to work remote. And so they got to whether the company liked it or not. They had to trust. Which in turn meant a lot of people had agency that maybe they didn't think they could have [00:34:00] and autonomy, right?

When we talk, like Daniel pink is a great book on motivation, he calls out autonomy as one of the sort of main factors for motivation. I think a lot of us want autonomy and there's this tension between being an employee and being a business owner in whatever category freelancers. Big, but you know that you get the guy to call the shots.

This idea of working

Sam Lee: for myself

David Fano: versus working for someone else. And I'm curious how you think about, how you think about that in terms of your career, your decision to do it. And then also helping other people do it, but also, benefiting greatly. I think from working for someone else, I just air quoted for anyone not watching on YouTube.

Yes.

Sam Lee: How do you think about that? Yeah. So first I'd start by saying we had a little sidebar before we kicked off and this concept of having a portfolio approach to life is one that I think encapsulates where we're headed in terms of the future of [00:35:00] work. My current chapter career-wise has me consulting.

I have a consultancy called ventures. I help generally startups with their commercial strategy, with their new products. And I do it in a collective format. I lead and I have, cross-functional teams that I pulled together. Other great independence that we collectively do work together with. So that's one piece of what I do today.

The other pieces that I fell into building a company called India. And it came about when I realized that in doing my independent work, I didn't want to do it in isolation. I wanted to have the same teaming and mentorship that I've become so used to in career. And also I knew that there were things that I didn't know, as a commercial leader, as a general manager, as a product. I knew certain things and I could do those things well for clients, but I certainly didn't know how to build the book and business and how to have a balanced life as an independent. And those things are play bookable. There's people that have done it at a seven or eight figure level that could teach it.

So IndeCollective kind of brings together those [00:36:00] things, the practical education, the FARA had mentors and of course the peer group, so that you can build better business in life together. So when it comes to independence, I would say. This portfolio approach is where I think we're moving.

And. So many workers today in this backdrop of COVID have had the chance to just free up the time that they used to allocate to commuting that they used to allocate to parties or work that used to allocate to other things, to do that side hustle or to explore that past. Or in the absence of all the culture confetti of the office place are now hungry for it because they're not excited about the nine to five that they're doing via zoom.

So I think a lot of people have started to explore and put a lot more time and energy into a side hustle. And that's turning increasingly into people leaving to pursue that. So one amazing woman that I had the chance to work with last quarter, Katie. She's a content creator. She's now an [00:37:00] influencer doing a host of different things but at the time she was working for face.

And she shares this story openly because she's, she is an influencer, she's got a hundred thousand followers on Instagram but she was working for Facebook and she, in her free time, cause she was bored with Facebook, started money with Katie. And it was a blog and then it was an Instagram handle where she was offered.

Smart advice around building wealth as a millennial female, and and 18 months into that, she not only had a following, but she had found a passion. And it was at that juncture that she said maybe there's something to build here beyond just the content. Maybe there's a business that could reside within this great content.

And it was at that stage of sheet. She and I met. And at that stage, she started watching courses and productizing our offering and is now fully doing it and actually was just acquired by morning, bro. So she's had a really cool outcome. Soaring. She's like growing like gangbusters, but that's an example of somebody who, if you'd asked her 24 months ago, when she was at Facebook, would she [00:38:00] ever have her own thing, much less take it from side hustle to full-time independence.

She would have said, heck now, in fact she's said it to me and she said it in testimonial. So I think there's more and more. And where's Katie, you're going to be she's 26 or 27. Whereas Katie going to be in 10 years, much less, 20 years. I have no fricking idea, but I can be sure it's a portfolio approach because she's already got it right.

She's built a brand and it happens to be a personal brand. Not everybody wants to be the face of their brand. Katie is really great at it, but she's built a personal brand that now involves amazing courses. Merchandise. Cool content and a lot of free stuff so that anybody can access her and be inspired.

So that's how she's already created a portfolio at the age of 26. I've also seen, people like my mom. Who worked in government, her whole career, and really cool roles. Now flip the switch and have her own portfolio. And we've had members three new collective that are public company board members who are doing boards or consulting or writing books, or are doing [00:39:00] nonprofit work.

So this notion of portfolios in life and work I think is where we're moving. And the cool part is that I'm seeing young people, who've gotten the courage in COVID. To just side hustle and take the leap. I'm also seeing really seasoned people like my mom like many of our members who are saying, okay, enough is enough.

Like I have the skills I can put them into these different form factors, consulting, writing coaching, you, name it and build a really meaningful business in life.

David Fano: I have I have an issue with the language around site. I have, because what it does is there's a primary, secondary, right? In our little sort of sidebar before we talked about us, I want to build something for myself and.

I'm of the belief that we're always building something for ourselves. At least that's the way I that's the approach I've taken in my career. Whether I was working for someone or I was building my own [00:40:00] company, if I take this approach at everyone's a client, that there's actually, I think the way, think of when people go to freelance, they create three entities.

There's me like my company and then my client. But sometimes when they're the majority of the times, I feel like when people are an employee, employer relationship, they think of it as two. MI and co and company that I work for. But I think if we could keep this like freelancer mindset through everything we do, there's me.

There's like my brand, like me as like service provider into the world. And then there's clients, I'm always making that thing stronger. And that's the thing that goes with me. That's ultimately. Like what Francis wanted to bring to the next company. You had a very happy client because you were focused on gaining experiences, delivering value, and you were very clear and I would imagine you approached it then, like you did it, we work, you were clear with your expectations.

You were clear with how you wanted to grow. You were clear with what you wanted to be paid and you were able to move, but in, so I don't [00:41:00] think. I never felt from you that it was this like adversarial thing where I feel like now some people say I need a side hustle too, because I don't like my job.

I don't want to build their thing. I want to build my thing. And a side hustle is fine if you're like not happy with your work or there's something happening and you have those ambitions. But I feel like sometimes the precursor to the side hustle is this disappointment with their current situation.

Where I think side hustles are really productive and great. When they're building on these experiences you want to gain and if you can't get them, that's fine. But it's not, I think they're better when you're running towards something then as an outlet to run away from

Sam Lee: something. Yeah. So two, two thoughts there first to anchor in a bit of science here every second of every day, we're bombarded by a million bits of information.

Right through our five senses, your sight, your taste, or smell, et cetera. And your brain can only process 120 of the [00:42:00] million bets, 120 of those million. So that's your conscious mind then? Its processing power. So if you are in a negative state, if you are focused on negative things, guess what you're going to be seeing more of that.

In your periphery and in your cognitive mind. So being in, in a negative place at work in your life is going to literally bring you more negativity. You don't have to believe in the law of attraction to to believe in what I'm saying. Cause it's just, I have glasses you're wearing the negative. Yeah. So I'm always coached employees, even if they're not happy.

With the current situation. Cause it's just that it's a situation you can get out of a situation to look for the silver linings and to anchor in those. Because if you don't, you are literally going to be looking for the wrong hundred 20 bits. So that's the first piece I'd say, I love what you just said about, your brand and your superpowers as the vehicle.

That can carry [00:43:00] you from experience to experience. One of the things that, that we teach through IndeCollective is this framework called relationship building it's scale and relationship building at scale is a threefold path. The woman who teaches that who's a dear friend, Ashley Quinto Powell likes to say that if you are distinctive at what you do, if you're distinguishing your career, you shouldn't have a handful of referral partner.

You should have an army of champions. And I love the visual of the army of champions. And that's what I wanted when I went independent and was doing my consultancy. And I had been at great companies. I'd gone to great school. There's no reason I shouldn't have had the army champions. And there's no reason that anybody on listening today shouldn't have an army of champions.

I think all of us can have it. So how do you get to that place? And I think it actually draws in what Dave said. It starts with first really knowing your story. And I said earlier, I think that's one of the most powerful things that we can do. And it's really who you are, what you can offer. And what's the impact that you have.

Cause people want to know how you can help them. I'd say the second [00:44:00] piece, once, your story is really to, with that story recalibrate the important people in your universe. And Ashley likes to say, each of us has a list of 200, even if we don't know we have it. So are these people you're selling to.

They're absolutely not that. And sale selling is not really fun. I don't think for most of us, it's the people that need to be recalibrated to who you are, what you offer and the impact that you have, because when they know that most people want to help and then they're prime to help cause they can help you to ID and then see, and seize the opportunities that are going to get you further, faster.

And then lastly, you have to stay top of. We all interact with so many people. There's so many bits of information that the bombarded constantly that if you're not top of mind, people won't think of you see and help you to seize the opportunities. So that's where knowing your story, recalibrating that list of 200 and then staying top of mind.

And people choose different ways. You might have a podcast, you might be posting on LinkedIn. Like I do constantly. You might be doing any number of things but [00:45:00] when you bring those three things together, your brand today is going to be elevated and people are going to try to help you to get further in your career.

David Fano: Sam. This is awesome. I could talk all day on these topics. But out of respect for your time and all the folks, you got to help in the things you've got to do. We'll wrap here. How can folks follow along with what you're doing? You just mentioned LinkedIn, how can they get all these great insights?

You're sharing. Learn a little bit more about indie collective. We'll make sure to link to them in the show notes, but I always love for people to hear directly from you.

Sam Lee: Absolutely. Yeah. So you can feel free to follow me on LinkedIn as Davis. I'm constantly in conversation with myself and anybody that wants to chime in, feel free to follow me there.

You can also find out more about indie collective. If you're inspired to think about independence, independent work as a next career vehicle, or if you're on the path and you'd like to get that leg up and you can find us at Indy collective, which is I N D E collective dot C. Great to be with you today, Dave.

Awesome.

David Fano: We'll make sure to share everything, [00:46:00] Sam, thank you so much. It's always awesome to connect. Yeah, we'll have to do this again soon.

Sam Lee: Absolutely.

David Fano: And that's it for this episode of nonlinear. If you enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe, share, and rate us wherever you're listening to the show, you can learn more about teal on our website deal.

tealhq.com. That's teal the color T E a L H q.com. Or follow us on social. At teal underscore HQ. Thank you so much for joining us. And please tune back in to keep hearing about how we make the decisions that shape our career. The teal career paths podcast is produced by rainbow creative with senior producer, Matthew Jones and editor and associate producer drew McDowall.

You can find more information on them at rainbow creative dot C O. Thanks again. We'll see you next.