Meggie Palmer: [00:00:00] And actually, I kind of feel like if you're in your zone of genius in your work and your professional life, things are not hard. Actually. You work hard and there's, there's hard times, but actually things are fun and exciting and things just move quicker when you're playing to your strengths.

David Fano: Everyone. Thanks for joining today. We're with Maggie Palmer and we're going to hear about her career story, but rather than me paraphrasing it, it's always here best to hear it directly. So Maggie, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Yeah,

Meggie Palmer: thanks for having me, Dave. So my name's Maggie Palmer and I'm the CEO and founder of a company called PepTalkHer.

And our mission is all around closing the gender pay. Right. And getting more women into senior leadership positions. So we're here to help you get paid, to know your worth and to really supercharge your career success.

David Fano: Awesome. Well, we're super aligned in what we're trying to do, but today let's, let's talk about the [00:01:00] story and arc of how you got here.

Right? Cause that's so, you know, you're going to continue to do amazing things, but it's always interesting to see like how these careers progress and the things we do that lead us to where we are. So we'd like to kick the show off with. The same question, which is w when was it in your life that you started to think a little more intentionally about your career?

Obviously doesn't have to be what you're doing today, but like, when you sort of started to say these things I'm doing or what I think I want to do to make money, maybe like maybe that's what we call it. Career thought versus like personal passion dot.

Meggie Palmer: Yeah. Do you know? What's funny? Cause I feel like a lot of us, you know, you kind of were expected to make a call on your career when you.

1718, right at school, like, which just kind of wild, you sort of decide in the next 50, 60 years. No idea what I wanted to do. Honestly. It's funny though. When I reflect on that, Dave, I did, when I was like eight or nine, I had this little posse of girlfriends and I'm still best mates. And then today, And we made our own saddle club cause we were [00:02:00] obsessed with those books.

And so we used, I used to make this little saddle club newsletter with those like old school horrendous image graphics from the olden days, you know, with computers back then. And I can't even clip art, I think it was called cliff. So I used to make this little saddle club newsletter for the audience of three of us.

So it's kind of fortuitous, I guess, in a weird way that I ended up as a journal. And then now, you know, a lot of what we do at PepTalkHer is education and content creation. Right? So it's kind of weird when I reflect on that, but I don't think that was intentional. I think that was just an eight year old, who was obsessed with books about horses.

I think, you know, there's been a couple of defining moments in my career day where I got. I can pinpoint the moment where it was like, am I going left or right. And typically for me, that was around value and around leadership style and whether I was willing to put up with it or not. So it's interesting when you, it's a great question.

David Fano: So when, when would you say was that? So I love the newsletter [00:03:00] journalism, so, so when was then. That time where you were like, alright, now you're like in the career has started. And what was that first thing for you?

Meggie Palmer: I don't think working at burger king at 14 is the start of my career. Maybe it is. I dunno, maybe that's what we customer service.

Maybe we'll count that working on the drive-through. My first job was, um, as a journalist, I was still studying full-time. I was finishing my business degree in my journalism degree and. I was a reporter up into the great barrier reef, actually in a, in a small city called Cairns. Some of your listeners may have heard of it in Australia, where I'm originally from.

I live in Manhattan now, but I'm, I'm an Ozzie originally before I migrated to America. And I was a reporter there for the local news. So I guess that's like officially when my career kicked off. Um, but I was still studying, you know, and, um, I was kind of lucky. I had a boss who let me. Take two half days off a week to kind of finish my studies

David Fano: Yeah. Okay. So that was so that I would imagine starting to sort of shape some of your opinions and thoughts on, on what you wanted to do, what was, what was that next moment where you needed to think about okay.

What am I going to go left? Or am I going to go, right? I'm going to stand still. Like, what was it? And then what you end up doing? Yeah,

Meggie Palmer: that's a great question. So yeah, I started, it was, it was a fun career. Journalism's an awesome job for anyone listening. Like it's, it's a real privilege because you get a window into people's lives, you know, at the highest of highs when they're winning elections and gold medals at the Olympics, and then at the lowest of lows, you know, when, like I was in Nepal, when there was the earthquake there.

Syria to interview Bashar al-Assad to see what had happened to the country there. Right? So you kind of the ebbs and flows of human life. And so I started my career in Australia and then I basically, honestly, I went through a bad breakup, Dave, and, um, I was kind of at that crossroads [00:05:00] with my career, I'd been offered.

I was working in politics, political journalism. I was offered another role and I was like, A bit heartbroken. And so I decided to move overseas. I kind of threw it all, threw it all away and went and volunteers in Peru, which was pretty random. And my mom was like, why don't you go? And like, you know, help some local newspaper.

And I was like, no, mom, I want nothing to do with it. I just, we just built, we literally were building. Houses with bricks. I just, I literally wanted to get my hands dirty. I didn't know it was something primal. I was like, I just need to do something with my hands and like nothing to do with anything that I'd studied or worked in.

So I went and, um, yeah, traveled through south America, did a heap of volunteering over there and then eventually moved to London and ended up working for the BBC world over there and CNBC, which was a cool chapter. So I guess it was like a travel chapter in my career. Right. It looks awesome professional experience, but it was also kind of like a license.

And I feel like for some of your lists and sometimes it's helpful, I think to know that like this seasons in your career, like there's times [00:06:00] when you're punching out 60, 70, 80 hours a week, you know, and then there's also times where you're like, I'm just going to chill, like, you know, I'm to not the easy road necessarily, but I'm going to take a job.

That's like good work-life balance and that's okay. You know? Cause I think sometimes you get burnt out. If you're always like going, going, going, sometimes you need a job that's right. For the season where you're at. And that was kind of, you know, one of those, you know, a bit more like choosing life and choosing travel seasons for me, Dave work was great.

It was important, but really that was about travel and friends and stuff.

David Fano: So I think a lot of people wrestle with that, right? Because whether societal pressure, familial pressure, personal pressure to give themselves permission to do something like what you did and, you know, maybe having like the reaction of a breakup or something, it's like, that's it, I'm over.

And it's kind of like what allowed you to do it, but at least let yourself allow yourself to do it. But like what, what was some of the thought process there to. And I'm sure in retrospect you're like, that was the best thing I could've possibly done. [00:07:00] Right. And you always know that in retrospect, but it's hard in the moment.

Like what was some of the thought process of like, I think I want to do this and that, and then how did you actually just say, okay, I'm doing it.

Meggie Palmer: Yeah. Because like, when I had this, cause, you know, I don't know in media, like when you're, when you work in. They basically trying to tell you that you'll never get another job if you dare leave.

And like, you're so lucky to have a role in there's 3000 people lining up behind you to have an on-camera reporting position and all this kind of palava. And so when I was offered, I was offered this, it was like a political report, like a senior political reporting role or whatever. And everyone was like, oh my bosses mentors.

They're like, well, you cannot turn it down. You couldn't, you couldn't say no. And I was kind of like in my head, I was like, I'll do whatever I want. And I think a part of it, the thought process Dave is like backing yourself because sometimes everyone else thinks you should take that product manager job.

What everyone else thinks you should move to SF, or you should take the consulting gig in Chicago. And sometimes you're just like, it makes me feel sick and I don't want to. And if that's where you're at, or I feel [00:08:00] like it's just not going to bring me joy. Just don't do it. Like I just, I feel like sometimes you need permission to say no.

And to just be like, if you back yourself, if you know that you're great at your job and by the way, for everyone listening, if you've had a job before, if you're in a job right now, it means that you are pretty excellent. Right. Cause if you weren't, you would get fired. And even if you have been fired recently, You know, like you do have value and you do have incredibly exciting things to contribute.

So you will find a workplace that will value you. Right. And that will pay you fairly for that. So I think like, honestly, it starts with knowing your worth and knowing that you contribute to a team and that you will find a great employer, because if you have that in a belief, it makes it a lot easier, Dave, to be like, you know what, I'm going to travel for four or five months.

And then I'm going to find that. Sure. It's going to take me to two months and I'm going to be kind of poor for a while, but like I have savings and I'll figure it out. And sometimes there's kind of windy roads, uh, half the fun, you know, [00:09:00] like, and I, it was funny because everyone's like, you can't not take that job.

Oh my gosh, you're going to like randomly travel. Like you're throwing away your curator, but then if you look back at it to your point, Dave, about, you know, the benefit of hindsight. Working at the BBC world totally changed my career. Right. In terms of the people that I worked with that I met the skills I learned, you know, even the brand recognition of having worked for such a large media organization still to this day, something that is valuable to my career story and had I not taken that leap of faith.

I'd probably still be stuck in Sydney, which is a lovely city, but it's not New York. Right. And so one of my favorite quotes is this quote that says leap and the net will appear. And I just want to encourage everyone. Sometimes you got to take that leap. I know that sometimes you can't because you've got a mortgage or kids or this health stuff happening.

I get it. But sometimes you can't. I kind of love that, that freefall feeling of figuring it out as you kind of are on your way. [00:10:00]

David Fano: It's one of the, you know, I'm, I'm always looking for opportunities like this, because I think so many people go through these things and career advice is this really funky category of advice that people give because it's, it's well-intentioned right.

Probably not what's best for you, you know? Cause people are advising you like on the absolute safest thing to do. So it's like the antithesis of high risk, high reward. So like low risk, low reward. And we know that with investing and so everyone, all, not always, I shouldn't say that shouldn't speak. So sort of it was, um, so parabolically, but.

Your parents are going to say, Hey, look, that's a great job. And what happens is you, you find yourself in this very weird place of like happiness shame. Whereas like I'm pursuing happiness. I'm not happy, but like on paper, everything's fine. So everyone thinks I'm just supposed to. [00:11:00]

Meggie Palmer: It's such a good point.

And you know, our parents love us and our mentors and our friends and our colleagues love us, but also we all have a different risk appetite. And our parents grew up in a really different era where, you know, you wanted that pension for life and you wanted that 30 year tenure. Like honestly, the idea of staying somewhere for 30 years kind of makes me feel ill on the inside Dave, but, but I grew up in a different generation to my mom and dad right.

Where it was different. And so there's value in there. And you can take that on board, but it's also okay. If you want to reject that for whatever reason, you might have it in the back of your head, you know, and you can take or leave what's right for you. And I think that that is challenging in some situations, especially, you know, depending on your family dynamics, your cultural background.

It was probably easier for me. I think then for other people, I had a very supportive family. I think that would be worried at times, but overall they certainly didn't kind of show that to me. I like getting a lot of advice from people though. Dave, I don't know if that's a good or bad thing. I [00:12:00] like to crowdsource lots of opinions.

And I did this during my career, actually at another turning point that we can talk about where I experienced the pay discrimination issue. And I, I, but I do love to kind of crowdsource people's opinions and then I take all of the. But I dunno, I just, maybe it's the generalist and wanting to hear both sides.

I just kind of like to know what other people's advices. Cause there might be one little nugget that you take from that even though you might decide to leave.

David Fano: Yeah. I mean, I completely agree. It's all on how it affects you. Right. I think like information, you know, there's people out there who ask for advice, they're really looking for validation.

And so for that, that could be actually quite, you know, jarring for them if they go through that journey. But if it's really just like information that I'm using to process later, then I look at that. I don't think any anyone benefits from having anyone can not benefit from having more information. I agree with

Meggie Palmer: you.

And then it's just being able to synthesize it and do. Good for you. And also knowing if you make a mistake, do you can just fix it? Th the

David Fano: other thing with advice and soliciting advice [00:13:00] is if you succumb to the pressure of feeling like you have to take the advice because you asked for it right, then that's also tricky, right?

Because there's some people you're just not going to listen to and you've gotta be okay with sort of being like, look, I'm not embarrassed that I didn't take your advice. Cause that's the other tricky thing with advice is like, when people get it, they feel like they have. Yeah.

Meggie Palmer: Yeah. And I think that's where like, curating that circle of people around you, you know, and also having people you want to have the cheerleaders.

You know, your grandma who tells you, you're amazing. That's so cool. But you also want to have someone who says, Hey, Dave, like, this is, this is a grave mistake. And here's why, and you might say, Hey, thanks Maggie. But like I disagree moving on, but you do want people that are going to be Frank and fearless.

And I always say to people, you know, we have a program at pep talker that kind of helps people get to the next stage in their career. And I always said it like, you need people around you. Who are going to be really honest with you because there's a lot of people pleasers. Who'll be like, yeah, no, you're a [00:14:00] great leader or yeah, no, that's a great career decision, but you want people who are going to kind of almost speak truth to power, do you to listen?

I feel like this isn't a great fit for you. And this is why, or I feel like it doesn't align with your values to go and work for a mining company. Or I'm concerned that if you take this role, you know, and leave your elderly parents, this is what worries me. Right? Like you need people who are going to kind of be upfront with you.

So seeking those people out is really powerful for your career journey as well.

David Fano: Completely agree. All right. So you go. Build houses. Get your hands dirty, go back to London. It's an incredible experience. What's that next? You're still in journalism. You go back to journalism. So obviously you liked it to an extent because right.

Another version of that is like you pivot to a whole different occupation, but yeah. What was, what was the next moment where like, Time to change things up a little. Yeah. You

Meggie Palmer: know, I think there's another key moment in my [00:15:00] career that I can recall where I was working for one of the major networks and quite by accident.

Dave, I discovered that my male colleagues who sat in the cubicles next to me were actually earning a heap more cash than me. We were essentially doing the same job, but that the same program, et cetera. But my pay was heaps less. And I found out, as I said, by accident, and I thought I raised it because I was kind of raised, see something, say something, but I just thought it was a mistake.

So I was like, Hey, like, FYI, this is quite a weird job. Let's just say, David, didn't go down. Well, to be fair, this was a few. Not to be fair, but this was a few years ago. Right? So gratefully things have changed in terms of the conversation, although I'm sure it still happens, but basically they said to me like, yeah, so maybe if you don't like the pain conditions you can quit or, you know, you can take us to court kind of the ultimatum that they gave me.

And I was like, sorry, what? And so long story short, I had to get a lawyer basically. [00:16:00] And it's, it's funny because it was a very stressful time, albeit a first-world problem because. There's bigger issues in the world that a lot of people are facing, but I, I was quite shocked at the bias and the discrimination based on pay that I was, that I was kind of going through.

But hindsight to your point, Dave, now, you know, that pivotal moment, that turning point, that sliding doors moment in my career really is the reason that we're chatting, you know, because that's why I started pep talk her. That's why I started figuring out. Maybe naively at that point in my career, I didn't know that the gender pay gap was a thing.

I didn't know that I was earning probably on average 20% less than the guys, because of the pay gap that exists in the developed world. I didn't know that I was so naive. And so it was kind of like this blinkers off moment where I was like, oh, this is how the real world works. And so, you know, like my whole mission is to kind of change that now.

So I'm kind of grateful that it happened because otherwise I wouldn't have the privilege to kind of do the [00:17:00] work that I do.

David Fano: So th this is a story, this isn't the first time I hear that story of someone who finds out I'm sure. Yeah. And sometimes it may be gender based. Sometimes it may be because like personality based in the sense that they don't go after it, but you know, that just people find out.

And so like, w what advice would you have for someone who, who like finds out, right? Cause you, you said you sort of approached it from this, like, oh, it'll be fine. It's just an error. But now knowing what you know now, like this happens to people, how do they. And I'm sure you guys advise people all the time through pep talk her on how to handle a situation

Meggie Palmer: like this.

Right. Right. And I think, you know, when we're talking about the gender pay gap, the thing is, is that it's shocking and it sucks. However, it's even worse for women of color, right? For Latina women, for black women, for indigenous women, the pay gap is even worse. It's even higher than 20%. Right. They're being paid even less.

And so this is such a big challenge, um, across the board. So. The way that you [00:18:00] handle this situation is kind of dependent on your scenario. So I was lucky in the sense that I had some money saved in an account I'd been saving a bit of cash or whatever. So I had a bit of a safety net. So I kind of knew, I knew that if I took them on it, wasn't going to end well, I was pretty clear.

So I think you've got to read the tea leaves of like, if I raise this how's that going to play out publicly? For me, right. Make no mistake. There are office politics involved. Right. And so I knew that, and I was willing to deal with the consequences. I did crowdsource friends and family, and to be honest, most of them will do it.

Don't do it. You've got a great job. You'll never work in the industry again, like you contact these people on. And it was, and I really valued that feedback, honestly, because that kind of tempered. Probably where I was already at, which was like, it's burn the place down, you know, like, so I, I appreciate that advice.

I rejected it, but it probably made me approach it perhaps [00:19:00] a little more delicately than maybe I would have otherwise. Right. So I think, you know, I was privileged and I could have that conversation knowing that the consequences may be bad because I had that savings. Right. Because I was very confident that I would find another job because I backed myself.

I think if. You know, if you've got financial, if you're looking after kids, if you've got a mortgage to pay and you're concerned that if you raise it, you might lose your job. It's not to say that you shouldn't raise it. It's just that it needs to be maybe a little more delicate, right. Because even though we know that being paid differently for the same job, Like easily Google, right?

Like that is illegal. However, the challenge is the only way to prove that ultimately is to go to court and employers also know that, right? Cause they, they make a calculated risk that like, well, how many people are going to find out? And then all the people that do find out how many of them are really gonna say something and then how many can afford to get a lawyer.

And then how many can get afforded to go through to two years of a corporate. Not many [00:20:00] people. Right. And so it is, it's a really, it's a really challenging thing, but you know, one of the most important things, and I know you talk about this a lot in the work that you do, Dave is like having options. So at any point in your career, it's so important to have a plan.

Right because life happens. Things like this happen. Companies go bust out of the blues out of the blue. There are recessions, there are downturns, there are pandemics, so you have to have options. And so if you have a plan B, if you have a quality network of people that can easily refer you into new work or throw you to some consulting work, while you find the next gig, It means that you have more power to raise, you know, qualities that you observe in the workplace, be they pay be they discrimination of another kind.

Right? So it's a really delicate thing. And I, you know, I don't want to be irresponsible and say, you should always raise it and you should always go to town because sometimes people don't have the privilege to be able to do that. I did in my instance. And so it was important to me because I wanted to send a message [00:21:00] that like, you can't do this to people, but I also, that came with consequences.

Right. I ended up leaving that role, found another role. Maybe four to six weeks because of relationships, because I had those people around me who basically could hook me up and I knew that, right. So if you have that knowledge of, I've got a strong network, I'll be okay. It allows you to handle issues in the workplace a little differently.

David Fano: Yeah, I think completely agree. And I think there's two things there. There's what I'd call career investing and these things that are going to. Yield a return. You don't exactly know when you don't, you know, it's more like angel investing startups. The majority don't make it some do, but you know, the ones that do.

So I think I put relationships in that category and I think enough people not in, sorry, I should say not enough. People take a little bit more of that longer horizon. Like the longer horizon conversations are on, like, what do I want to be in five or 10 years? [00:22:00] And I think that has this like false sense of accuracy where it's like, what are these actions I could take that they don't know will return explicitly, but it is a good use of my time.

Yeah, that's right. And it sounds like that's what you were doing. And it actually, it came through the other is I think that we sort of catastrophize in the wrong way and we sort of build these scenarios up in our head. That I won't get hired again. Everyone's going to find out I'm going to have like the Scarlet letter.

And can you talk a little bit about that? Cause I, I think that the majority of the time, I don't want to say. But most people are not operating at like that profile that is going to be on TV. Maybe you were, but, but like,

Meggie Palmer: yeah, like Gretchen college, for example, like very high profile. Yeah. And to your point, most people, most people are not Gretchen Carlson.

Right? Who, who have a very public battle. I do think though, you know, I think in your industry and in a company, whether it's a big company [00:23:00] or a small company, when there is a disagreement, when there is conflict around leadership around. Abuse in the workplace, around discrimination in the workplace. I do think that it does to an extent for better or worse, unfortunately, when you raise it as a victim, I do think it tells you to an extent, I don't think that's right.

I don't think that's fair, but we know from surveys that when victims report even crimes, um, but even in the workplace, we know that people don't always believe them. Right. And I'm sure.

David Fano: Yeah. Yeah,

Meggie Palmer: exactly. You're rocking the boat. You should be grateful. Like you've got such a, how could you, your manager is such a nice person.

Of course, but, you know, unfortunately we all carry unconscious bias and that's one of the contributing factors to the gender pay gap. Right. And so it wasn't that my manager was necessarily a bad human. It was just that like, Hey, this is a problem. It should be fixed. And it wasn't. So I think, but, but I think what makes it easier and what made it easier for me, Dave?[00:24:00]

I was very clear on my values and equality and fairness is something way back in the saddle club days was always really core to who I was as a person. It's part of the reason why I got into journalism, because I was like, there's so much bad stuff happening in the world to good people. It's not fair.

How can we change policy? How can we shift, shed a light on this so that it changes. So I was like, this isn't fair. And if it's happening to me, What if it happens to her or to him or to them. So I think it's. Also the people who do, and I'm sure that I burnt bridges and I damage relationships because of that cross it, I was willing to die on from that, from that company's perspective.

But I don't re I don't regret that. And I don't miss those people because if they think differently of me because of that, then they're not really my peeps. You know, they're not people I'm going to have in. You know, I'm okay with that. I'm happy to kind of leave those people behind, but it is a calculated decision, you know, make no mistake.

I do think. And it's again, [00:25:00] I don't think that that's fair. I don't think there should be backlash, but I think we're all operating in the real world. We know that there is that, but to your point, if you've placed lots of angel investments from a relationship perspective, then if there's five people over here who were kind of a bit dubious about you, hopefully you've got 15 people over there.

Who think you're amazing and who excited to grab a coffee with you and brainstorm ideas and make intros for you on LinkedIn, you know?

David Fano: Yeah. And I think that that's the funny, this, like what's fair versus what's real is that in the space of careers is incredibly complicated because I see people complaining on Twitter all the time about these things.

It's like, look, I'm going to agree with you 10 out of 10 times on like the practical or logical implications of that. But then there's just like, the world is what the world is and eventually we'll change it. And by vocalizing that is broken. Hopefully it will change one day, but today it's not. And so you gotta play by the rules, even though they're [00:26:00] unwritten rules, if you want to win the game, which really stinks because the rules aren't like written, but I think people have to recognize that.

And I think, and I think so, like relationships is a good example, right? It's like, you have to recognize that. Sure. The, the actions you take, maybe you lose that job, but that manager goes to another. Now maybe they don't want to bring me on. Right. Cause I do think, you know, there's extremes where people get, like, maybe I've seen examples of where people get like overly righteous about certain things.

And like, it's like, look, I get it. But that's the standard you keep the, maybe most people might not. And so this. Maybe that's cool. This isn't the right place for you. It doesn't align with the values, but don't burn the whole thing down. Right. Cause you know, but you know, it's hard, it's super nuanced, you know, on like what's right.

And what's wrong. Yeah, it's really tricky. So I, and it really wears on people. That's the other tough part.

Meggie Palmer: It is. And that's, again, I think it comes [00:27:00] back to the values, like what are you willing to compromise on and what are your non-negotiables? So, and it's different for everyone, right? There's no right or wrong, but, but I think being clear on that helps you from a decision framework perspective.

To say, well, this person's personality doesn't gel with me, but I can respect them as a human. So I'm okay to keep working there as opposed to that, that person is actually being entirely inappropriate. There's a line in the sand. I actually needs to have a conversation about this, but yeah, choosing your battles is something that I struggled with Dave, especially early in my career because I get pretty feisty sometimes.

So I think like, Which is like a great quality, but then also, you know, I had to have mentors who really taught me to temporary and they were like, you've got to choose your battles. There are some battles that you should fight, and there are some battles that you can learn from quietly and maybe not, you know, make a big deal of it all the time.

And so you've got to, as an individual decide what that framework looks like for you based on your

David Fano: values. [00:28:00] That's great advice. And I think that's where, you know, you've only got so much energy. And what's that like input to output ratio. So, all right. So now you're deep in this process and it's been, you've, you've learned it's had a lasting impact on you.

It's affecting what you're doing today. It's probably like reoriented. It sounds like your mission aligned with your values, which I think that's a really great to have that intentionality of like, what are the things I stand for? Because the more the activities we do can be aligned with that. The more energized we are, I would imagine.

But what, what did that lead to? And like, how did that inform. But next career move for you. Yeah, it's

Meggie Palmer: interesting. So I stayed in journalism for quite a few years afterwards, Dave, I didn't make the pivot straight away. I was. I was pretty broken, honestly, by the experience I think. And again, I know that a lot of your listeners would have had these experiences multiple times over in their career where they felt marginalized, where they felt they were treated differently because of who they were or how they look.

I found that quite confronting, actually it [00:29:00] took me a while to process that. So I took a job that was a seasonal job in the sense of it, it was, it was a great job, but it, it was. The hours were good. It was low stress, it was low anxiety and it was what I needed. Um, and I kind of felt a bit guilty taking it.

Cause I was like, oh, this isn't like as hardcore, but it was, I had to recuperate honestly. And I wanted to just read right. That to your list is that sometimes it's okay to choose a season of recovery or calm or. Easy, you know, it's okay to take the easy road sometimes. So I stayed in journalism for a while.

Loved it, but always in the back of my mind, I was like, how can I solve this problem? How can I stop this happening to someone else? Like. You know, w what do you do about this issue? It seems so insurmountable. And so I started like talking to friends and helping mates and helping them negotiate. And, you know, when people were fired while pregnant, I was like, you know what, that's actually not okay.

And they were like, oh, what. It's not cool. And they're like, oh, um, so just kind of having these conversations and [00:30:00] I built a terrible website, Dave, terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible taught myself WordPress from YouTube. It was shocking. Anyway, captured people's email addresses and slowly realized, okay, this is like, this is not just me.

Who's had this problem. And long story short did it, did a tech accelerator. Figured out how I could use tech to solve the problem of ultimately the gender pay gap, but at animal grassroots level, how can we kind of shift our mindset to focus on the successes we do have in our career instead of spiraling into the negatives and the time we met at a spelling mistake, or we lost a client or what.

How can we help shift people's focus to be in the positive so that they have data and they have the confidence to advocate and negotiate for their careers. So it took me years in the background and then probably maybe five years later, four years later, I quit journalism had some savings and just went full time.

And here we are, I guess, seven years, seven years.

David Fano: Wow. I love hearing those stories because I think a lot of people [00:31:00] just see like the headlines in the magazine as a kid, they just sort of packed up and started a company. Feel like the majority of the times, that's not the case. It's like they've been working on it for a long time taking small actions and like, sure.

One day there was like a reveal of the new company. So, so talk us through that a little bit for people that are sort of the, you know, right now, great resignation, great recalibration, whatever it's being called, but a lot of people are contemplate. Going out on their own, starting their own thing, what needed to happen or like what boxes needed to be checked for you to be like, okay, now now's the day I'm going to quit my job and go do that.

Meggie Palmer: I was, I was scared. I think at that point, you know, at that point I had a really good job in journalism. I changed jobs again. I had a really great role. And again, it was one of those, like, you know, you'd never quit that job as if you would leave that role, traveling all around the world as the correspondent.

But for me, the thing that I, what held me back from not doing it sooner was fear and also money. I was like, I didn't, I didn't want to be. I I [00:32:00] had savings, but I was so paranoid that I wouldn't be able to pay the rent. And I, I have a decent risk appetite, Dave, as an entrepreneur, as you, as you, no doubt do as well.

However, I also am a little bit cautious in that. I'm like, I need to be clever here. I need to protect myself. I need to have a rainy day fund, et cetera. So. What I started doing was side hustling. So I was working as a journalist, but I started, um, doing media training on the side. Um, a PR company asked me if I did it.

I didn't, but I was like, yeah.

So then I was like Googling how to do media training, like to some friends who did it, figured it out and turns out it was basically a very transferable skill from teaching. What we do is. It's two people who were trying to understand the press. So I had kind of maybe like 20 or 30 K a year on the side coming in bits and pieces, 5k three K whatever.

And then I was like, okay. So if I quit and if I did this, I could probably make [00:33:00] money. I was like, I reckon I could make 50 or 60 grand at least like worst case. I was like, that's fine. I can like tread water financially for a while. That's fine. So that was kind of my landing pad. Like, cause I couldn't, I had no idea how PepsiCo was going to make money.

I had no idea. I was like, is it a not-for-profit? I don't even know. So I use the media training is like my soft landing. I didn't, it wasn't what I wanted to do. It's it's not my mission in the world, but again, it was a season of like, well, it's a means to an end. And frankly, you know, honestly, my fiance is what kind of kicked my ass a bit.

And he was like, can you. Stop like side hustling this and just focus. He's like, you need to focus. You cannot, you know, I'm all for a portfolio career, but he was like, if you want to build something properly, like you need to focus. You cannot be doing three things at once. You can't be doing journalism, media training and pep talk her.

And I was like, well, Pretty harsh, but fair. So I quit journalism, had the media training a couple of days, a week to con and had like a [00:34:00] little consulting thing on the side and then was trying to figuring out pep talk for like one or two days a week. And then eventually kind of the tide turn when I figured out.

A revenue model is a PepTalkHer and how we could help support corporate companies running workshops for, you know, ASX 200 and fortune 500 companies and that kind of stuff. And the community grew and grew and grew. And we ran courses for them. And so I figured it out eventually, but it took me time. And I didn't, I had decided I didn't want to take venture money for a variety of reasons, some of which were due to due to discrimination as well, but that wasn't really the path for me.

And I don't come from a wealthy. Family who could kind of, you know, give me an angel check. That's not my background. And I, so I had to kind of self-fund it and just figure it out basically.

David Fano: Got it. So what, what are the, what were, what were some of those early learnings?

Meggie Palmer: Oh, I reckon the biggest learning Dave, the best thing, honestly, arguing the best things [00:35:00] I did was Gallup strength finders.

So if anyone's listening, it's 20 bucks. I not an affiliate for them, but it's 20 bucks. If you just Google Gallup strength finders, and it's an assessment, it's not a personality test, but it's kind of similar. And they basically ask you all these questions. It takes you like 20 minutes and then it kind of identifies for you your top five.

And the theories that we are role might, I think it's 30 or 35 strengths and the theories that we will have the top five. And so I did this assessment and worked with these great coach called Jason Biggs in New Zealand, obviously virtual sessions, but he helped me unpack what my strengths were. And that was kind of, I had to really understand myself, Dave, before I could start a business and frankly be a good leader and I'm still learning.

I'm still improving, but that was pretty revolutionary. Cause I had always thought. Um, one of my strengths is activator, which means I have a lot of ideas and I, you know, a lot of entrepreneurs are probably activators. The flip side of activator is that you have a lot of [00:36:00] ideas, but sometimes people who don't have activator find you overwhelming.

And they think that you're a bit cyclonic or a bit all over the place because they. You're starting another business and you have a media training and then what people don't get it. And I always thought it was cause I was weird, but what I realized three strength find his coaching was actually, I just have different strengths.

And so the more I can lean into my strengths and hire people will have support from people who maybe can prop up my weaknesses, but most successful I was going to be. So that was probably the biggest thing for me was. You know, one of my weaknesses, sadly, ease like admin and the nitty gritty, Dave. So I had to hire an assistant pretty early on to help kind of propel our success forward even more, which was, I know it was kind of revolutionary.

I know that's not like rocket science, but it was, it was a bit of a aha moment for me.

David Fano: Yeah. There's yeah. That's a great insight because I think that, especially as a small business owner, you, so cash [00:37:00] is king, right? It, you think you're supposed to be able to do everything and, you know, I think the faster you can identify the things that you aren't good at and don't like doing actually, and just, just let money solve that and make that investment even makes it a little bit tighter.

The whole thing just works.

Meggie Palmer: And I think it's helpful for people in their careers too, because, you know, even if you're not going to start your own business, even if you don't want to have a side hustle, if one of your strengths is creativity and you're working in finance every day where you really can't be that creative with numbers, you might find yourself frustrated and angry and pissed off at work.

And it may just be that you're not in a role that really speaks to your stress. And so when you can find those roles and that kind of alignment from a career perspective, it's game changing because you're happier, you frankly have to work not as hard because it's easier [00:38:00] for you. And I think sometimes I don't know if it's school or whatever, it kind of teaches you that like things have to be hot.

And actually, I kind of feel like if you're in your zone of genius in your work and your professional life, things are not hard. Actually. You work hard in this there's hard times, but actually things are fun and exciting and things just move quicker when you're, you're playing to your strengths. So I don't know, I found it pretty revolutionary for me.

David Fano: Yeah. It, it, it really is a big unlock because we also have. Right. Like if you played little league sports, right. The thing you're not good at, they make you do more of it and hit fat. Okay. We're just going to practice fast balls all day. And a lot of the, you know, uh, one of the originators of strength finders, Marcus Buckingham, who is, you know, a big it's sort of one of the proponents or main proponents of this, like play to your strengths actually, once you identify like, stop trying to get, be average at the things that you're bad at and focus on being exceptional at the things you.[00:39:00]

And

Meggie Palmer: I think that comes with, you know, I get it in your first couple of years, right. And university and college, you want to kind of explore and maybe you don't know, you love art because you've never done it. Or maybe you don't know, you love coding because you've never tried it. So of course there's like that exploratory phase, but I do think, you know, the longer you get into your career, it's exciting to figure out what you do love and what you want to kind of deep dive into.

David Fano: Yeah. So now you're tell us about PepTalkHer. You've been doing it for seven years. CEO and founder now. So that's your, you know, knew you had to learn new skills, but a given, especially the overlap with our audience and, you know, Tell us about what you got going on and what's happening at PepTalkHer and how people could benefit from it.

Yeah. So

Meggie Palmer: we really help support nationals in particular professional women who are typically sort of mid-career. So most people within our community have a couple of years experience, 20 years experience, and they're really looking to earn more money or get a promotion or just. Find that sweet spot in their career.

[00:40:00] Maybe they don't feel like they're in their zone of genius right now. Right. And they're like, I just kind of don't feel super satisfied or like super joyous in my career right now. Is it possible to find something better? And people are kind of often surprised when I'm like, the answer is yes, but we need to do work first.

Right? There's a couple of things we have to unpack and then kind of look to the future. So that's what we really help people do is to earn more money, firstly, to kind of help them get through. And promotions, and then also help them find that alignment so that the work that they're doing brings them joy and, and with that comes the money and the success as well.

Right. So we love it. We've got about 60,000 women in our community, all around the world. Most of them are in the United States. Um, so we have a heap of free resources that you can check out. The app is totally free. The pep talk, her app that you can download on apple and Android. We've got a big social media communities that come say hi, we run heaps of free events.

And then we have a paid course as well that people can, can join any of that kind of really wanting some live coaching to help, help support them. My team. And [00:41:00] I run those programs. Yeah, we're just, we're just, we're hoping one day Dave, to be unemployed, but you know, the United nations reckons, we're looking at a hundred years before we get to pay parity at this point.

So unfortunately I might have a job for a little bit longer, but we love seeing the success stories. I actually was just cleaning my office before we spoke Dave and I was reading a God that one of my students had said. And she got like a $45,000 raise last year, you know, um, after the course and that's kind of game-changing money.

So she's putting in the pool for her kids. So it's like sometimes one of the things I hear a lot, Dave is like a lot of people in the community say to me, Meggie, I don't want to have the conversation about money. I would rather get paid what I'm getting paid and not rock the boat. I hear that all the time.

And the thing is it is possible to have these conversations without burning bridges, without feeling super awkward. Right. It's just a slight reframe of the way that you've been raised to think about negotiation and salary and money. [00:42:00] Um, so it's really exciting. I love seeing all the aha moments that people have going through the program of realizing, oh my God.

It is just a conversation. Right. We can talk about money. I do deserve to be valued. There are plan B alternatives out there. Right. I can find them. So, yeah, it's exciting.

David Fano: Wow. That's amazing. I'm sorry. You had to go through what you did to arrive at this. Yeah, to the benefit of the broader collective. It's amazing to see how you turn that into really impactful business and company.

That's helping a lot of people. Um, what's the best way for people to find PepTalkHer, give us some link. We'll make sure to link to them in the show notes, wherever you're watching or listening, but it's always great to hear it directly. Yeah.

Meggie Palmer: Sounds great. Yeah, you can check us out. We're an, all of the socials at pep talkers sent me a DM on Instagram.

Let me know that you're listening. Today's epic podcast. We've got a cheat sheet. If you're kind of like feeling like maybe if you have a niggling feeling that you're getting paid less than people at work and check out pep talk, her.com [00:43:00] forward slash payments. And the cheat sheet will help walk you through that.

That's totally free. You can check that out as well. Yeah. So just come and say hi, we're on all the social media channels. The website's got heaps of free resources and download the PepTalkHer app as well. It's we built it with a behavioral psychologist and it's really designed to help you focus on your career successes.

It's like a, it's like a Fitbit for your career, Dave. And. We'll send you these prompts so that maybe once a week, once every two weeks, so you can be like, oh yeah, I, I planned the intern program or I close this deal and you kind of put the specifics in so that at the end of the year, when you're advocating for yourself and negotiate, and you've got data to put forward as to why you deserve more.

Right. So it helps you through that entire process. So you can check that out, totally free on all of the app stores as well.

David Fano: That is awesome. Well, Maggie, thank you so, so much from journalist to house builder, to journalist, to entrepreneur, uh, and [00:44:00] mover and shaker. Thank you so much for the story and looking forward to see all the incredible lives you impact.

Meggie Palmer: Likewise, thanks so much.

David Fano: And that's it for this episode of Non Linear. If you enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe, share, and rate us wherever you listen to podcasts.

You can learn more about Teal in our website tealhq.com, or follow us on social media @teal_hq. Thanks again, and please join us again to keep hearing about how we make decisions that shape our careers.